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  1. #2451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post
    Like Shahin, the majority of those released so far – 128 of the 180 – were detained and hadn’t been charged, put on trial or given an opportunity to defend themselves. Some say they weren’t even told why they were being detained.”

  2. #2452
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    Well I'd argue the ones in Jordan should be Jordanian. The ones in Egypt should be Egyptian. The ones in Lebanon should be Lebanese. The ones in Syria, Syrian.

    It is and has been the policy of those government to oppress and restrict their fellow Arab Muslims that came from what is now Israel: to not grant them citizenship nor political, economic, educational and professional freedoms. This perpetuated them as an oppressed underclass holding onto a "refugee identity" and is a problem that was created by those various Arab governments involving their fellow Arabs. Those governments have acted in a way counter to all other refugee host governments and have carried that policy on for generations with the express political goal of fomenting the Arab-Israeli conflict because it is a nice distraction from their own internal problems.

    Those Arab governments need to own that problem and grant those people citizenship and full rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
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  3. #2453
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    Well I'd argue the ones in Jordan should be Jordanian. The ones in Egypt should be Egyptian. The ones in Lebanon should be Lebanese. The ones in Syria, Syrian.

    It is and has been the policy of those government to oppress and restrict their fellow Arab Muslims that came from what is now Israel: to not grant them citizenship nor political, economic, educational and professional freedoms. This perpetuated them as an oppressed underclass holding onto a "refugee identity" and is a problem that was created by those various Arab governments involving their fellow Arabs. Those governments have acted in a way counter to all other refugee host governments and have carried that policy on for generations with the express political goal of fomenting the Arab-Israeli conflict because it is a nice distraction from their own internal problems.

    Those Arab governments need to own that problem and grant those people citizenship and full rights.
    So is Israel going to give Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan? Riser didn't ask about other Arab governments and their attitudes towards Palestinian refugees, he asked about those Palestinians residing in the West Bank and Gaza, which is occupied territory that Israel controls. What should Israel do with them?
    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

  4. #2454
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    50 years to the day

    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    Also need to dismantle any multi-generational "refugee" status for Jewish people "returning" to Israel at this point.
    why? every country decides who gets to come in.

    as far as their citizenship goes, why was it not a problem when they were occupied by jordan and egypt? maybe israel should give up 67 territories.

    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Israel.
    so, more violence?
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  5. #2455
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  6. #2456
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    Compare and Contrast

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	062-hans-holbein-1523-death-letter-a-q87-2561x2581.jpg 
Views:	36 
Size:	1.52 MB 
ID:	477873n attack on civilians in Jerusalem that has left three dead and at least a further six wounded came just hours after Israel and Hamas struck a deal to extend a temporary truce by another day, threatening a tentative negotiated ceasefire.

    Two gunmen opened fire on a group of people waiting at a bus stop early on Thursday morning before being shot dead by nearby soldiers. Grainy CCTV footage circulating on social media shows two men pull up in a silver car, get out and start shooting at those on the pavement.

    According to Israeli newspaper Haaretz, citing police sources, the two gunmen originated from a Palestinian neighborhood on the outskirts of East Jerusalem in the West Bank. The two, reportedly brothers, were said to be affiliated with Hamas and had previously served prison sentences for terror offenses.

    The newspaper reported those killed in the attack were Rabbi Elimelech Wasserman, 73, Hanna Ifergan, 67, and 24-year-old Libiya Dickman. The bus stop was the same location where a bomb exploded a year ago, according to the Associated Press, killing a young boy and wounding a further 18 people.

    https://www.newsweek.com/jerusalem-a...-hamas-1848354



    https://www.reuters.com/world/middle...es-2023-11-30/

  7. #2457
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    Rasputin is online now Полые тростник на ветру
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    What nationality do think applies to them? Israeli?
    Well, in he Bible, the name Palestina refers to a nation of the Philistines who were living there when the Israelites came out of the Sinai desert. I'm pretty sure Abraham bought a parcel of land from the sons of Heth who were Canaanites, which shows that there was already recognised land ownership in that area where Israel was no more than a promise.

    As the story goes, when the residents of "The Land" do evil in the sight of the Lord (worshipping false gods, sacrificing to idols, ritual infanticide etc.), then he sends another people to destroy them. The Canaanites were usurped by the Israelites, and the Israelites were usurped by the Babylonians, before returning, rebuilding, then later getting destroyed and driven off again.

    The modern history of Israel is similar to the ancient when it comes to agreements about ownership.
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. -אלוהים אדירים

  8. #2458
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    FWIW, the Philistines themselves were migrants to the region. They were completely wiped out first by King Nebuchadnezzar and any that remained a hundred years later by Alexander. There's no trace, archeological or otherwise, of any Philistines after the fourth century BCE. After they disappeared, it was Jews and Samaritans who remained.

    While the King James Bible uses the words Palestine and variations Palestina, and Philistia four times, the Hebrew Bible only uses the word Peleshet for all three. Herodotus is the first person in recorded history to use the word 'Palestine' to describe Palestina, which did not come directly from the Philistines, as part of Syria. Other ancient historians add that Palestina included both Jews as well as other ethnic groups. Historically up until after 1967 referring to someone as Palestinian meant anyone who lived in the region, not any one specific ethnic group.

    Most modern day Palestinians along with Arab-Israelis trace their roots to seventh century CE and later invading Muslim Arab tribes who conquered not only Levantine Israel/Palestine but also Northern Africa, the Middle East, along with vast territory in Central Asia.

    There was probably some intermarriage & conversion throughout history making some modern day Palestinians and Jews descendants of Samaritans, Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Assyrians, and on and on. Including quite possibly traces of Philistines and Canaanites. It's worth noting that even today Israelis, and Jews, are one of the most racially diverse ethnic groups on the planet.

  9. #2459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasputin View Post
    Bible
    I don't think religion is doing anything to help this whole religious situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  10. #2460
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    Sounds like the Zionists and Nazis had something in common. They both judge national identity by blood lines.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  11. #2461
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    I don't think religion is doing anything to help this whole religious situation.
    Maybe we just need another religion to step in and mediate? The Buddhists seem pretty chill

  12. #2462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cisco Kid View Post
    Sounds like the Zionists and Nazis had something in common. They both judge national identity by blood lines.
    An ignorant and nasty statement. Orthodox Judaism practices matrilineal descent whereas most ethnicities who care about that sort of thing practice patralineal descent. Otherwise, there's nothing particularly unique about Jewish practice from an anthropology standpoint.

    Non-orthodox Jews can be cultural, personal, ethnic, religious, political, in addition to genealogical. Nazis didn't care either way. For them a Jew was anyone with Jewish ancestry as well as anyone who practiced Judaism.

  13. #2463
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    So who is what is a moving target depending on who calls the shots. Got it. Same as it ever was.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  14. #2464
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    That's more than a little reductionist. You do have a point though, or more specifically Rasputin has a point. Similar histories over land disputes & hostilities both ancient & modern throughout time play out all across the globe. Despite that fact, for some reason the world has a hostile obsession centered around Jews.

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  16. #2466
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    Maybe we just need another religion to step in and mediate? The Buddhists seem pretty chill
    Myanmar has entered the chat

  17. #2467
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    NYT says the plot was known about by Israel for a year. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/w...e=articleShare


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  18. #2468
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    As the attacks were unfolding I questioned how such a huge intelligence failure could happen. Humans. That's how

  19. #2469
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    That's a huge miss. And it seems uncharacteristic of Israel.

  20. #2470
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    it sucks for everyone that this wasn’t avoided. hamas doesn’t care about israelis or palestinians.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  21. #2471
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    We missed 9/11 with some glaring misses in intel.

    It sucks. I often wonder how the world might be a better place if that had never happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  22. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    We missed 9/11 with some glaring misses in intel.

    It sucks. I often wonder how the world might be a better place if that had never happened.
    The world would certainly be a better place if this hadn't opened the global Anti Semitism floodgates. This has been almost as significant an unfriend event as politics, covid, and masking were as I see where people land.

  23. #2473
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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    The world would certainly be a better place if this hadn't opened the global Anti Semitism floodgates. This has been almost as significant an unfriend event as politics, covid, and masking were as I see where people land.
    Shaken up things alot too. this Admin can’t have it both ways and is standing on a house of cards/anti semites. You know, some real facts, vs the saga of Trump bullshit the rest of our lives.

  24. #2474
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    Israel’s hard-right government is unpopular with Israelis, just like the previous admin's hard-right government was unpopular with younger Americans. Both Netanyahu & Trump made a conscious effort to cultivate relationships with right-wing radicals. As a result polls show American views on Israel started shifting around 2020. So a lot of young Americans side with Palestinians because of domestic politics more so than antisemitism per se:

    Many factors, including social media, demographic change and Israel’s prime minister, may be responsible for the rift between young Americans and Israel, experts say.


    Israel’s supporters need to do a better job making the case for Israel, and Israel needs to work a lot harder on human rights, rather than focusing on antisemitism if they want to change public opinion with younger people.

  25. #2475
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    MV,I doubt there’s much evidence for that. the left and young people in general have had a diminishing view of israel for years. Did it cost another point or two? maybe. but it’s a long downward fall already.

    -

    this was a sad read. much like canada’s amendment at the un that failed a month ago when they tried to insert a condemnation of hamas, oakland wretches with the same hate.

    i think JBL posted some of the video, but here’s an account from a Californian about the event

    https://forward.com/opinion/571697/o...meeting-hamas/
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

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