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  1. #1
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    50 years to the day

    50 years ago Israel was attacked, it happened again today. Over 3,000 rockets launched in about 6 hours, roving teams of assholes randomly opening fire on civilians, kidnappings and who knows what else. This could end up being another huge mess as the world takes sides.

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    The attacks happened on the Gregorian anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, though not Yom Kippur on the Hebrew calendar. The demented videos and images of civilians, entire families, executed in the streets are coming from pro-Hamas groups. Disturbing acts of terror directed at civilians. The militants aren't trying to hide it. Totally insane savagery.

    The world has essentially taken sides. The West condemns the attacks. Iran helped orchestrate the attacks. Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries hold Israel responsible. Russia responds to the Hamas attack on Israel by calling for a civil war inside the United States with state channels saying the massacre in Israel are beneficial to Russia. Turkey calls for restraint in Israel and Palestine for all parties. Israel declares a state of war.

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    That's a direct disrespect thing, they won't acknowledge the Hebrew calendar being different.

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    Unfortunately Hamas is more interested in keeping up its funding that actually working for positive change for Palestinians. This move will keep a hardline government in power in Israel, which will lead to more lost Palestinian lives. And will set back any attempts at normal political communication in the Middle East. It will also destroy support for the Palestinian cause from Europeans. Conversely it might destroy Palestinian support for Hamas, although that is the least probable outcome.


    Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The attacks happened on the Gregorian anniversary of the Yom Kippur War, though not Yom Kippur on the Hebrew calendar.
    There is your biggest clue that this proxy war of atrocities is orchestrated ultimately by Russia and aimed at the West to distract from Ukraine, but it also happens that the Russian allied Iranians are the prime mover as they have a huge interest in disrupting Israeli-Saudi normalization of relations as that is the primary threat to their regional hegemony.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    There is your biggest clue that this proxy war of atrocities is orchestrated ultimately by Russia and aimed at the West to distract from Ukraine, but it also happens that the Russian allied Iranians are the prime mover as they have a huge interest in disrupting Israeli-Saudi normalization of relations as that is the primary threat to their regional hegemony.
    This also will stretch western military supplies to the limit if we all get involved. They were saying that Hezbollah has 100k rockets in Lebanon and we know that there's an outrageous amount of ordinance close enough in Syria and elsewhere, how could we ever counter that. The Pres already said that we would do whatever's necessary, effectively putting us in the middle of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
    This also will stretch western military supplies to the limit if we all get involved. They were saying that Hezbollah has 100k rockets in Lebanon and we know that there's an outrageous amount of ordinance close enough in Syria and elsewhere, how could we ever counter that. The Pres already said that we would do whatever's necessary, effectively putting us in the middle of this.
    What are we going to do if we get involved? Israel has Iron Dome and Arrow 4 and a host of other missile defense stuff. Israel has the military power to occupy the 17 square miles that is Gaza, so no more rockets. Israel can SEAD and strike Syria with US ISR support. They have F-35s, F-16s, F-15s, and a fuck ton of drones. Bomb munition stockpiles, launchers, and enemy C4I.

    All we have to do is supply some replacement JDAMs, aircraft spares, maybe we can offer tanker and JSTARS.

    This won't impact what Ukraine needs from us materially.

    It will distract the political will to support Ukraine with those things they need. That was the Russian goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  9. #9
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    Well yeah, they could turn Gaza into a nice flat beach resort zone pretty easily but some of the sovereign nations around them are a different story. I'm pretty confident that they have a better handle on taking care of their shit than we (or anyone else) can but as we're seeing in Ukraine, and we've seen in a few other places, it's about volume and these other guys have a lot. Do they have 100k rockets in the Iron Dome system? Their air force will undoubtedly kick ass.

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    More innocent people on both sides will die because of Iranian & Hamas, and yes Russian, terror. This year Hamas leaders visited Russia meeting with Sergey Lavrov himself. Now is the time to stop elected lunatics from shutting down Western governments.

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    Retaliating with collective punishment phase about to begin.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://x.com/danwilliams/status/171...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Retaliating with collective punishment phase about to begin.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://x.com/danwilliams/status/171...sR_NcRK2VkCfkg
    It's not a collective punishment. It's a fucking war.

    Electric power supports the Hamas war effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    It's not a collective punishment. It's a fucking war.

    Electric power supports the Hamas war effort.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    More innocent people on both sides will die because of Iranian & Hamas, and yes Russian, terror. This year Hamas leaders visited Russia meeting with Sergey Lavrov himself. Now is the time to stop elected lunatics from shutting down Western governments.

    Hamas says leadership visited Russia, met Sergey Lavrov
    https://www.al-monitor.com/originals...-sergey-lavrov

    And the Iranians have been supplying Russia with missiles and drones for Ukraine... they might have accepted technical/operational expertise in leui of useless Rubles. The fact that the US and Israelis didn't see an operation of this size coming suggests some top tier level deception that would be the expertise of the FSB. Maskirovka.

    Reading about what is happening over there is horrific... the Hamas kill squads went out and were massacring civilians, dragging them from shelters, shooting parents in front of children, kidnapping young girls, parading the bodies of the naked dead.... rocketing and burning towns... over 200 dead and over 1000 wounded... I think the radical faction is trying to foment a war situation, such a severe response from Israel that would embroil the surrounding Arab states into a wider regional war. Indeed that is what the message from Hamas to the Arab governments was: we are fighting, invade Israel and join us. So far only the Taliban has said "yea!" asking permission for their fighters to cross.

    Biden gave a 3 minute speech with no questions in which he emphasized:
    *We are 100% behind Israel
    *We are in contact with governments of the region
    *Anyone else thinking of fucking with Israel will face the consequences

    Israel is striking back, more death... I hope calmer heads prevail and it doesn't blow up big, but what a tragic mess. It would be too much to hope for the Arab states to disavow and stomp Hamas.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  15. #15
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    A prime example of the stupidity and hate and death generated by religion.. On both of the current sides.. Israel has been a killing ground for centuries..
    what's so funny about peace, love, and understanding?

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    ART. 33. ó No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
    Pillage is prohibited.
    Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

  17. #17
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    ^yea.... so you believe that Israel should be forced by international law to supply electrical power to an enemy nation currently engaged in an invasion, rocket assault, and indiscriminate attacks against the Israeli civilian population?

    Do you want to know what the US does every single time we have gone to war back to 1991? We have attacked the enemy electric grid usually on day 1. We have even have weapons specifically for it. It isn't collective punishment. The electric grid supports the enemy C4ISR, IADS, and more.

    We took out Iraqs power both times: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...power%20supply.
    We took out Serbia's power: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...rade052599.htm

    If you want the lights on, don't start wars.

    You are mad that the Israelis stopped selling electricity to the enemy government currently attacking them because they owe it to the people who elected Hamas?

    Yea... OK... shitty situation but your position is laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    ^yea.... so you believe that Israel should be forced by international law to supply electrical power to an enemy nation currently engaged in an invasion, rocket assault, and indiscriminate attacks against the Israeli civilian population?

    Do you want to know what the US does every single time we have gone to war back to 1991? We have taken down the enemy electric grid. We have even have weapons specifically for it. The electric grid supports the enemy C4ISR, IADS, and more.

    We took out Iraqs power both times: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...power%20supply.
    We took out Serbia's power: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...rade052599.htm

    If you want the lights on, don't start wars.

    You are mad that the Israelis stopped selling electricity to the enemy government currently attacking them because they owe it to the people who elected Hamas?

    Yea... OK... shitty situation but your position is laughable.
    Maybe US tactics are why they didn’t support International Red Cross and Human Rights Watch claims that it was collective punishment when Israel cut power to Gaza previously.

    Also, Palestine is not an enemy ‘nation’. That’s kind of a big part of the issue.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Maybe US tactics are why they didn’t support International Red Cross and Human Rights Watch claims that it was collective punishment when Israel cut power to Gaza previously.
    The Middle East "is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region." -The Fucking Founder of Human Rights Watch

    You appeal to biased authority falls flat.

    I stand by my well reasoned points about the unreasonable reality of war.

    Perhaps you want to tell us all how you think Israel should respond to a September 11th/Pearl Harbor level attack by their neighboring state which does not acknowledge Israel's right to exist and is calling for their other neighbors to join the invasion of Israel? A pat on the head and a lolli?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by summit View Post
    The Middle East "is populated by authoritarian regimes with appalling human rights records. Yet in recent years Human Rights Watch has written far more condemnations of Israel for violations of international law than of any other country in the region." -The Fucking Founder of Human Rights Watch

    You appeal to biased authority falls flat.

    I stand by my well reasoned points about the unreasonable reality of war.

    Perhaps you want to tell us all how you think Israel should respond to a September 11th/Pearl Harbor level attack by their neighboring state which does not acknowledge Israel's right to exist and is calling for their other neighbors to join the invasion of Israel? A pat on the head and a lolli?
    Look, Iím not saying Israel is wrong and Hamas is right. Far from it.

    But, fuck if there arenít a lot of human rights abuses in Palestine, and I think needs to be acknowledged. And itís an oppression they live under constantly.

    The whole situation is a clusterfuck all round (are Palestinians worse? maybe! Hamas, definitely) with no hope of being resolved. One side justifies the oppression with (valid, especially today of all days) threats of attack, the other justifies their attacks to fight against being oppressed. Itís hopeless.

  21. #21
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    Iím not going to have a conversation of human rights abuses on the day Hamas organized an incursion into Israel to murder civilians.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker View Post
    Iím not going to have a conversation of human rights abuses on the day Hamas organized an incursion into Israel to murder civilians.
    Seems like the only day the topic of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has come up recently.

    But Iíll stop.

  24. #24
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    Balfour

    1917

    Long before hitler

    It’s complicated

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    Despite today's chaos there are (or were) differing viewpoints among Palestinians and Israelis:

    - Hamas governed Gaza poorly since 2007 and says Israel is an illegitimate country. Hamas was losing support to more extreme Jihadi Palestinian groups. Hamas needed this terrorist attack to stay in power. Hamas wanted to prevent peace in the region using mass slaughter of Israeli civilians to achieve its goals. It looks, at least in the short term, like they've succeeded.

    - Prior to Hamas the even more incompetent Palestinian Authority governed Gaza under now 80-something Mahmoud Abbas. Hamas took over due to the failed peace process to establish an independent Palestine. Hamas and the PA routinely violently attack each other.

    - This is a massive Israeli intelligence failure for the Netanyahu government which bills itself as strong on national security. The consequences for Gaza and the many Palestinians who cheered Hamas on, along with those who didn't, are going to be severe. For the sake of deterrence, if not for a more visceral response, Israel needs to show Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and others that the country is not becoming weak.

    - The Netanyahu government was already facing mass protests, including from the military, in response to attempts to curb independent court power. Now Netanyahu is calling for a coalition government that includes opposition leaders who were seeking a more peaceful solution with Palestinians.

    - Before Netanyahu can turn Gaza Hamas hideouts into “rubble” the government will need to deal with the hostage situation. There are hundreds of Israeli hostages. Too many Palestinians and too many Israeli hostages will die unless Hamas agrees to surrender hostages.

    - Regional governments are already trying to deescalate, but the reality is it will probably be a month or more, at least, before any deescalation can occur. There are way too many videos of Israeli civilians being tortured, murdered, and paraded.
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 10-07-2023 at 04:33 PM.

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