50 years to the day

[bodywhomper]

Can somebody remind me of the age of the majority of Palestinians?

[californiagrown]

There's this idea of decontextualizing the Israeli blockade as if it's put in place out of malice and not security. Due to terrorist attacks, Israel alternated between allowing and disallowing imports and exports. After Hamas was elected, Gaza experienced some of the world's highest unemployment rates after four major wars and many other clashes between Hamas and Israel. In 2023 Israel lifted export bans on Gaza as well as issuing ~17,000 permits for Gazans to work in Israel. The choice for Gazans is either trade or war, not both.

that last part is likely why hamas launched the Oct 7th attack- to keep the blinders on the people and keep them reliant on hamas. But again, no one here is supporting or defending hamas. Fuck them and anyone who knowingly supports their atrocious actions. Mostly, the pushback is surrounding the Israeli calculations of what constitutes acceptable collateral damage from accute strikes, as well as acceptable collateral damage from the ongoing war effort (lack of medical supplies, food, etc). The Israeli calculations seem to err on the punitive side of the scale instead of the humanitarian side of the scale.

[MultiVerse]

The Israeli calculations seem to err on the punitive side of the scale instead of the humanitarian side of the scale.

Not true. No other army in the history of war has achieved a lower proportion of militant-to-civilian casualty ratio in an urban environment. Every other war in the region, two of which are raging right now, is orders of magnitude worse for civilians.

Maybe people are protesting Israel because they want to uphold a "principle that every life is worthy and the murder of none shall pass in silence". Maybe people care about that principle a lot and that's why they're protesting Israel.

That doesn't explain though why so many were yawning throughout the Oct. 7 massacre, the Yemen Civil war, the Syrian Civil War, the Russia-Ukraine war, the ongoing Sudanese war, or the Chinese mass internment of Uyghurs all of which could suggest that something else is at play.

Can somebody remind me of the age of the majority of Palestinians?

According to academic research, the Intifada was the main driving factor for the surge in marriage and fertility and corresponding young population in Gaza where the median age is 18 compared with the world average of 28.

[californiagrown]

Not true. No other army in the history of war has achieved a lower proportion of militant-to-civilian casualty ratio in an urban environment. Every other war in the region, two of which are raging right now, is orders of magnitude worse for civilians.

Those other wars are A) involving significantly less sophisticated militaries, B) are between near-peer adversaries completely unlike Israel-Hamas, and C) are involving governments widely known for human rights abuses. Israel is cutting edge sophisticated, has a vastly superior military, and probably doesnt want to be widely known for humans rights abuses.


Additionally, prescribing black/white answers to completely subjective judgement calls like what constitutes "acceptable collateral damage" is stupid. Its a scale, and just because you killed a few less civilians than the last country, doesnt mean you are in the right. It jsut means you did a few less horrific things than the last country to do it. To be unable to acknowledge the ability and desire to "do better" shows that reducing collateral damage is not really a priority.

[bodywhomper]

So the majority of Palestinians is Gaza are children….

[MultiVerse]

Those other wars are A) involving significantly less sophisticated militaries, B) are between near-peer adversaries completely unlike Israel-Hamas, and C) are involving governments widely known for human rights abuses. Israel is cutting edge sophisticated, has a vastly superior military, and probably doesnt want to be widely known for humans rights abuses.

Additionally, prescribing black/white answers to completely subjective judgement calls like what constitutes "acceptable collateral damage" is stupid. Its a scale, and just because you killed a few less civilians than the last country, doesnt mean you are in the right. It jsut means you did a few less horrific things than the last country to do it. To be unable to acknowledge the ability and desire to "do better" shows that reducing collateral damage is not really a priority.

Not "a few," orders of magnitude less. You're an engineer. You should know what that means. And it's not subjective, either. The IDF is destroying tunnels built under civilian infrastructure. When civil infrastructure is used for military purposes it ceases to be civilian infrastructure according to the conventions of war.

So the majority of Palestinians is Gaza are children….

18 is generally considered to be an adult so roughly half are children and half are adults. To your point, yes, Hamas is using children as human shields. Hamas exhorts women in Gaza to have more children in order to create a larger army.

[JimmyCarter]

So the majority of Palestinians is Gaza are children….

The majority have grown up living under a blockade and have had the terrorist bullshit of Hamas supported by stuff like Israel’s reaction to the “Great March of Return”, so it’s not surprising they don’t see Israel as the white knights in all this. Older populations in Israel and elsewhere have more history of the conflict, Gaza is filled with kids who’ve been living under a somewhat restrained boot.

[jono]

I have not. People can ascribe different meaning to the phrase “Palestinian Cause.” That's Jono's point. If people in the West want to define the phrase differently that's fine.

That's not my point, but thanks for sharing your perspective. Pro tip: the model you have in your head of others is just your imagination. When it's wrong you're wrong and the first step to fixing that is to accept it.

Using the phrase "the Palestinian cause" says there is a singular Palestinian cause. Which is literally impossible until the penultimate Palestinian dies. Because "Palestinian" is not a choice, it is not possible for the group thus described to be in agreement about what they want. And ascribing any chosen goal to all the people in such a group is false.

It's also counterproductive, since it drives people toward the thing you claim they should reject. People don't often respond to criticism by improving their perspective, they usually just double down. Feel free to demonstrate.

[californiagrown]

Not "a few," orders of magnitude less. You're an engineer. You should know what that means. And it's not subjective, either. The IDF is destroying tunnels built under civilian infrastructure. When civil infrastructure is used for military purposes it ceases to be civilian infrastructure according to the conventions of war.

How you go about destroying that infrastructure matters. Currently, the strategy is to give a warning to vacate (whether or not that is actually feasible for the civilians on the ground), and then drop a big ass bomb destroying the civilian infrastructure and the military infrastructure... only to have the military infrastructure pop up right next door in a matter of days. Effectively causing large impacts to civilians, but minimal impact militarily.

Hamas is vastly outmatched. Israel is not in any danger of losing the war or suffering large casualties at the hands of hamas. Hamas is cornered, contained, and has no offensive capability left to speak of. Israel does not need to push the limits on what is allowed under the various wartime conventions. They dont need to "go to the whistle" on every play. IMO, and the opinions of most of the rest of the world, Israel needs to do more to prevent innocent civilian death and suffering. What they are doing now is not enough.

[MultiVerse]

That's not my point, but thanks for sharing your perspective. Pro tip: the model you have in your head of others is just your imagination. When it's wrong you're wrong and the first step to fixing that is to accept it.

Using the phrase "the Palestinian cause" says there is a singular Palestinian cause. Which is literally impossible until the penultimate Palestinian dies. Because "Palestinian" is not a choice, it is not possible for the group thus described to be in agreement about what they want. And ascribing any chosen goal to all the people in such a group is false.

lolwut?

MultiVerse: People can ascribe different meaning to the phrase “Palestinian Cause.”

Jono: Using the phrase "the Palestinian cause" says there is a singular Palestinian cause.

Please explain to me how I'm wrong when we're both saying the same thing? In other words, yes, not all people or Palestinians for that matter view the Palestinian cause in the same way.

That's not my argument though, right? My argument is the majority of Palestinians in the Middle East view the "Palestinian Cause" as the destruction of Israel. It's not even a controversial take, it's simply a statement of fact.

How you go about destroying that infrastructure matters. Currently, the strategy is to give a warning to vacate (whether or not that is actually feasible for the civilians on the ground), and then drop a big ass bomb destroying the civilian infrastructure and the military infrastructure... only to have the military infrastructure pop up right next door in a matter of days. Effectively causing large impacts to civilians, but minimal impact militarily.

Hamas is vastly outmatched. Israel is not in any danger of losing the war or suffering large casualties at the hands of hamas. Hamas is cornered, contained, and has no offensive capability left to speak of. Israel does not need to push the limits on what is allowed under the various wartime conventions. They dont need to "go to the whistle" on every play. IMO, and the opinions of most of the rest of the world, Israel needs to do more to prevent innocent civilian death and suffering. What they are doing now is not enough.

You keep making the same point over and over without updating your viewpoint. Israel is flooding Gaza with aid and Israel has reduced the intensity of its operations in Gaza. The number of civilian casualties has fallen dramatically.

[JimmyCarter]

lolwut?

MultiVerse: People can ascribe different meaning to the phrase “Palestinian Cause.”

Jono: Using the phrase "the Palestinian cause" says there is a singular Palestinian cause.

Please explain to me how I'm wrong when we're both saying the same thing? In other words, yes, not all people or Palestinians for that matter view the Palestinian cause in the same way.

That's not my argument though, right? My argument is the majority of Palestinians in the Middle East view the "Palestinian Cause" as the destruction of Israel.

You: westerners interpret the Palestinian cause differently from what all Palestinians mean

Him: not all Palestinians support the same cause

[MultiVerse]

Yes, take out the word "all", and that's consistent with what I wrote. Most Westerners think something like a two state solution defines the Palestinians cause while most Palestinians think a one state solution defines the Palestinian cause. I mean, you can cite chapter and verse, polls, their revealed preference etc., of Palestinians saying & acting on exactly that.

[jono]

lolwut?

MultiVerse: People can ascribe different meaning to the phrase “Palestinian Cause.”

Jono: Using the phrase "the Palestinian cause" says there is a singular Palestinian cause.

Please explain to me how I'm wrong

Ok. "The" is singular. You say there are differing views and I say that means there is no singular cause BECAUSE (and stay with me here) "Palestinians" are not a group that can kick out dissidents--they're still Palestinians. Using an unchosen descriptor to ascribe a chosen view to the group is wrong. It's the tool of bigots.

Regardless of the window dressing about majority opinions or polls or any other horseshit intended to claim homogeneity of the group. It's wrong. And it's only helpful if your goal is to implement collective punishment, genocide or the like. Is that your goal? Do you think polls matter because they excuse collective punishment?

[MultiVerse]

Jono, you're using the word "you" as if I'm offering up my opinion. I'm not. And I'm not arguing group homogeneity. Nor am I arguing for collective punishment. I've argued against it in fact. I'm simply stating the majority Palestinian point of view according to Palestinians themselves. That's the defining characteristic of this conflict. That's why Palestinians rejected offers of two-state solution in the past. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[jono]

Jono, you're using the word "you" as if I'm offering up my opinion. I'm not.

Lol. Dude. I used the word "you" to give a factual description of an action performed by you. Just type more words, I guess?

[MultiVerse]

Me accurately describing the majority Palestinian point of view. If you can't accept reality attack the messenger instead, I suppose. Like I said, if you don't know any facts, any theory can fit the 'facts' you do know.

[jono]

Me accurately describing the majority Palestinian point of view. If you can't accept reality attack the messenger instead, I suppose. Like I said, if you don't know any facts, any theory can fit the 'facts' you do know.

No one is arguing what you wish they were arguing. So go ahead and build a strawman, I guess.

the Palestinian cause which is explicitly in their own words: killing Jews.

These are your words, but who is this "they?" I didn't object to you stating someone's opinion, I objected to the ridiculous, bigoted, false and counterproductive name you assigned that opinion.

Which is so painfully obvious at this point that I can only think you're just trying to demonstrate that doubling down phenomenon. If so, point taken.

[californiagrown]

Israel is flooding Gaza with aid and Israel has reduced the intensity of its operations in Gaza. The number of civilian casualties has fallen dramatically.

Correct me if i am wrong here, but the decreasing intensity of IDF actions is gaza has more to do with increasing its readiness to address the increasing threat from Hezbollah and Iran.

Personally, my concern here is that Israel is happy to keep gaza in a perpetual purgatory of target practice and suffering with exactly zero endgame in mind. that was always my fear for this situation was that Israel would run up in there guns ablazing, wreck house, and then go "well, whaddawedo now?".

The military fight was won long ago. Israeli settlers have killed more palestinians in the last 10months, than hamas has killed israeli civilians in the last 10 months. Israel needs to win the cultural and socioeconomic fight now and convince gazans to reject hamas and violence and rebuilt their lives and country... but Israel doesnt seem interested in fully fighting that battle because each new targeted strike or operation that kills civilians sets that cause back to square one. And the wounds of Oct 7th are still too fresh in the mind of the public to embrace "moving on" and "moving forward".

[PNWbrit]

Me accurately describing the majority Palestinian point of view.

I'm curious how you're achieving accuracy in this regard.

Especially given that we're constantly told not to believe any other kind of statistic coming out of Gaza.

[MultiVerse]

These are your words, but who is this "they?" I didn't object to you stating someone's opinion, I objected to the ridiculous, bigoted, false and counterproductive name you assigned that opinion.

It's not a false statement, nor is it ridiculous. Decades of war, terrorism, October 7th, rejection of a two-state solution, and on-and-on. Palestinian Islamic scholars repeatedly call for fatwas inciting murder of Israelis and Jews. I will however, in the future, in deference to you Jono, use the euphemism 'destruction of Israel' instead.

I'm curious how you're achieving accuracy in this regard.

Especially given that we're constantly told not to believe any other kind of statistic coming out of Gaza.

The preponderance of evidence: Palestinians in their own words, Hamas in their own words, the rejection of numerous peace settlements, their own actions, polls, the words of their religious leaders, and so on. I mean, the slogan for various Palestinian and other affiliated groups is literally "Death to Israel" alongside "Death to America."

[jono]

Palestinian Islamic scholars repeatedly.... I will however, in the future, in deference to you Jono, use the euphemism 'destruction of Israel' instead.

I'm gonna start holding my breath now.

Palestinians in their own words

Or not.

[bodywhomper]

When we read or hear statements about “the majority” of Palestinians in Gaza think x or y, it seems that most of that majority are children.

[MultiVerse]

lol. Dirty pool, jono. Because that, sir, is a facile argument in response to PNWbrit's question i.e. destruction of Israel, not your question.

When we read or hear statements about “the majority” of Palestinians in Gaza think x or y, it seems that most of that majority are children.

Yes, Palestinian adults should be teaching Gazan children to make peace, not war.

[PNWbrit]

The preponderance of evidence: Palestinians in their own words, Hamas in their own words, the rejection of numerous peace settlements, their own actions, polls, the words of their religious leaders, and so on. I mean, the slogan for various Palestinian and other affiliated groups is literally "Death to Israel" alongside "Death to America."

So you believe Hamas and others in their own words when it supports your pro Israel views - % Palestinians who support Hamas/Death to Israel etc.

But not when it doesn't - Palestinians killed by Israel.

Your bias is glaring.

[MultiVerse]

Nonsense. I've been critical of Israel as well. You've also mischaracterized the argument. In other words, do you *not* believe Hamas when they call for the destruction Israel? Am I wrong about that? If I am wrong about Hamas, what do you think their goals are?