50 years to the day

[Cisco Kid]

Google it.

[ex-powderbroker]

yeah i’ve looked. seems like people take a couple things out of context and people right now love to use it to draw some kind of equivalency.

“you think the nazis were bad? well what about what we did here, we’re pretty bad too”

it’s always the same shit with the America bad crowd and extra points right now with the Hitler had the right idea “pro-pal” contingent.

If people want to love on Russia, Nazi Germany, and Islamist countries they should just be up front about it and admit that they hate the USA.

Even if Dresden looks less strategically important in retrospect it’s also clear based on the testimonies that they thought there were factories and rail yards that were driving the war machine. As you say, Germany could have surrendered. Japan could have not brought us into the war. What’s weird is that those countries seem to have moved on while a large part of our population seems to want to take up arms for the other side.

To say that we bombed Dresden out of bloodlust or as revenge for Coventry as some do is just revisionism.

I’ll be sure to let the kids know that when I grew up the Nazis were still the bad guys, it’s going to blow some minds at the rate we are going.

[summit]

The Nazis were still shooting V-1 and V-2 rockets at civilian areas, and killing civilians, before, during and even 6 weeks after Dresden. Something about that sounds familiar.....

[JimmyCarter]

yeah i’ve looked. seems like people take a couple things out of context and people right now love to use it to draw some kind of equivalency.

“you think the nazis were bad? well what about what we did here, we’re pretty bad too”

it’s always the same shit with the America bad crowd and extra points right now with the Hitler had the right idea “pro-pal” contingent.

If people want to love on Russia, Nazi Germany, and Islamist countries they should just be up front about it and admit that they hate the USA.

Even if Dresden looks less strategically important in retrospect it’s also clear based on the testimonies that they thought there were factories and rail yards that were driving the war machine. As you say, Germany could have surrendered. Japan could have not brought us into the war. What’s weird is that those countries seem to have moved on while a large part of our population seems to want to take up arms for the other side.

To say that we bombed Dresden out of bloodlust or as revenge for Coventry as some do is just revisionism.

I’ll be sure to let the kids know that when I grew up the Nazis were still the bad guys, it’s going to blow some minds at the rate we are going.

http://ww2history.com/experts/Tami_B...nse_to_Dresden

“When V2s are landing on your territory you have a different calculation, but once they stop landing and once you start to think, my God, did we start to become the enemy we were fighting; did we start to become like them? That’s a sure sign that at some level you’ve given up something terribly important.

I tell my students, you know, never get to the point where you are the enemy you’re fighting. Never sink so low that you’re convincing yourself that you are more moral than they are and once the war’s over you’ll prove that. In the middle of fighting the war you’re actually at the same level. Once you get to that point you have to start asking yourself some very hard questions.”

[summit]

The last German V-2 attack was 27 March, 1945 killing a 34 year old British lady in her home. Dresden was 6 weeks prior.

What your quote doesn't capture is that Dr. Biddle is really describing the evolving nature of the Allied bombing campaign. That is what she wrote about. It is her largest scholarly topic in 20 years at the War College. She is telling you the capacity for reflection, regret, and moralizing is what sets the Allied mindset apart from the Nazis. The recognition that they are to be defeated, not emulated, but that hard paths may need be taken without following them unwaveringly and forever..

Churchill fucked up a LOT in his career, and yet he is my favorite statesman of the 20th century. Churchill, and Dr Biddle, understand that war is a complex complex thing. Dresden was complex. You could make arguments for and against. Churchill did indeed see that. He also saw the need to not continue on that path in the European theater, even though the path looking backwards included Hamburg in 1943. Before the Dresden raid, he had been told the war might end as soon as 10 weeks, but it could also be 40 weeks. That isn't next week. But he had a mind for history. He probably got it from the Dardanelles disaster. Experience comes from mistakes.

[MultiVerse]

Senior Hamas official told Reuters: the terror group was briefed regarding the results of ceasefire talks in Doha saying terms not in line with the last proposal that the group made in early July.. Hamas doesn't appear to want the ceasefire agreement, despite Qatar and Egypt backing current efforts.

[Cono Este]

Of course not, then why did they pull the October 7 shit in the first place.

They’re like the Yamato, beaching themselves for one last salvo.

[waxman]

Germany did start total war++ by intentionally targeting civilians at the start and throughout the war with the intent of killing and demoralizing the civilian population.

RAF tried to do precision bombing, but you can only do that during the day, and they got slaughtered. They said let the Yanks die in the daylight, if so inclined. RAF Bomber Command was doing area bombing at night with HE/incendiary loads to burn war industry and dehouse workers.

US 8AF did precision bombing during the day with HE targeting things like synthetic oil plants, rail marshalling yards, munitions plants, etc. The US kept getting slaughtered in the daytime to the point where we almost gave up daytime bombing. Dresden was an exception where the US did area bombing.

I'm NOT going to defend the Dresden raid, but I will say "but the war was over" is a bullshit argument against it. If it was over, the Nazis coulda surrendered. The war didn't end for another 3 months.

The US was hardly doing precision bombing during the day, just sayin'. Like it or not, pretty much all aerial bombing in WWII by strategic air forces was "area" bombing.

[Cono Este]

In Europe, RAF did the heavy bombing at night, Lancaster with Merlin’s, carried twice the payload of the b-17 ( designed in the early 30’s). They had a 15k lb “block buster”, and it wasn’t until the mustang ditched the shitty engine for merlims that the 8th had fighter escort anywhere.


Thank you British engineering.

[Cono Este]

Had the b-29 entered service in Europe first, the war would have been over that much sooner, and SAVED lives because the civilians all over the world were starving.

People want to extend the suffering in Gaza by leaving Hamas in charge are out of their minds.

[summit]

A Hamas terrorist attempts to bomb synagogue in Tel Aviv, but blows himself up early, injuring a passerby. Hamas took responsiblity showing that it can still perpetrate terror bombings inside Israel.

[californiagrown]

A Hamas terrorist attempts to bomb synagogue in Tel Aviv, but blows himself up early, injuring a passerby. Hamas took responsiblity showing that it can still perpetrate terror bombings inside Israel.

The cease-fire negotiations are a farce. Its just for show (on both sides). Hamas doesnt want to stop the war, and Israel doesnt want to stop the war.

Ill say it again, instead of peace negotiations, Israel and the West should be negotiating with SA to either act as a boots-on-the-ground peace keeping force in Gaza, or to completely repatriate all Gazans to a chunk of SA and then turn the Gaza strip into a completely vacant piece of land owned by the UN, where no one is allowed to live, but is managed as a sort of "national" park where day tours are permitted. Fuck a two state solution... turn it into a no state solution.


How much do we think it would legit cost to relocate the population of Gaza, and build them a few quick cities to live in just accross the SA border? 10 billion? Thats chump change compared to the 20ish billion Israel has already spent on this war. And SA could basically just repurpose their "The Line" project for this use- it would allow them to get out from under that boondoggle, while getting the UN to pay for it all, and acting as if they are doing a great service for their muslim brothers.

[summit]

Forcibly relocate over 2 million people, build them housing, infrastructure, everything.... and what economy? Where would SA put them? The Red Sea coast? Is there fresh water?

Will they be wards of the SA state? Will they be citizens with rights to free movement, passports, employment, education, state support?

SA doesn't have elections (neither does Gaza) so enfranchisement isn't a worry.

HIstorically Gaza was Egyptian territory, but the Egyptians categorially do not want the Palenstineans... neither do the Jordanians... neither do the Lebanese. Why would SA want the headache?

Sad thing is that Gaza could be quite prosperous if the leaders and the people chose peaceful coexistance and put aid into infrastructure and development instead of tunnels and rockets.

[californiagrown]

Forcibly relocate over 2 million people, build them housing, infrastructure, everything.... and what economy? Where would SA put them? The Red Sea coast? Is there fresh water?

Will they be wards of the SA state? Will they be citizens with rights to free movement, passports, employment, education, state support?

SA doesn't have elections (neither does Gaza) so enfranchisement isn't a worry.

HIstorically Gaza was Egyptian territory, but the Egyptians categorially do not want the Palenstineans... neither do the Jordanians... neither do the Lebanese. Why would SA want the headache?

Sad thing is that Gaza could be quite prosperous if the leaders and the people chose peaceful coexistance and put aid into infrastructure and development instead of tunnels and rockets.

"The Line" is an epic clusterfuck boondoggle, and to not complete it would be an embarrassment for SA. The planning, earthwork, etc is already done and getting the UN to pay for it all would get SA off the hook financially, and would be "giving a home" to their muslim brothers (even though theyre the wrong kinda muslim) and would make them look great in the eyes of the middle east and world.

Its not like gaza had an economy to begin with, so no loss there. SA could literally sell the 100square miles to the UN, which would then grant it to palestine as its own state. And yes, forcibly relocate the 2million people.

And then make Gaza into a UN park. No one gets it.


Obviously a fairly halfbaked idea, but i really think that SA is the key to any path forward here. They have money, they have standing in the muslim world, but the thing they (MBS) is standing on the world stage, and being at the Center of solving the Palestine-Israel issue would give them that world standing/recognition that they desperately need and crave.

[gravitylover]

Stop projecting what "we" think on a group that doesn't want it and won't accept it. Period. SA wouldn't even sort of consider what you're saying either so give it up. If anything they should be shipped off to Iran, they seem to want to support them so they can have 'em.

[LongShortLong]

Humanitarians in here. You oughta do some self reflection and delete that foul shit you've posted. There was a great evil in the past, so it's totally fine to commit another. Get a grip

[summit]

Iran absolutely does not want 2 million Sunni Arab refugees, even if the Gazans were interest in relocating, which they are not. Iranians are 65% Persian ethnically and 85% Shia religiously. The Ayatollah regime does not like Arabs nor Sunnis. They view Shia Islam as the religion the world should follow and themselves as the arbiter and sole mouthpiece of Shia.

Hamas is a tool of Iran because they share enemies. Otherwise they'd be fighting each other. The Ayatollahs view destabilizing the Arab region and preventing Israeli-Arab alliances as a good thing for Iran, especially if they can do it using Sunnis as fodder .

[gravitylover]

@LSL You're kidding right? I've done plenty of eyes open reflecting. They want me dead. Fuck em. I don't necessarily want them dead I just want them and their stupidity out of the picture so the world can move on. This media driven game sux, these assholes will keep putting their people in front of bombs and bullets, they can't seem to stop firing rockets into Israel and releasing hostages is most likely never happening. Fuck em.

[gravitylover]

Well, so there you go. Nobody wants them and they're too wrapped up in their own ignorance to live by themselves. They had 18 years of self governance and here we are...

[californiagrown]

@LSL You're kidding right? I've done plenty of eyes open reflecting. They want me dead. Fuck em. I don't necessarily want them dead I just want them and their stupidity out of the picture so the world can move on. This media driven game sux, these assholes will keep putting their people in front of bombs and bullets, they can't seem to stop firing rockets into Israel and releasing hostages is most likely never happening. Fuck em.

Maybe we should build a wall around gaza and get hamas to pay for it? They are a bunch of rapists and murders.

Maybe trump was just confusing his brown people when he was talking about mexicans, the southern border, building a wall, etc?


I just dont see a productive Ceasefire happening because neither side wants it. hamas' plan is to be whupped by israel and have a humanitarian crisis, and Israel knows that a Ceasefire will be nothing but a 6 week R&R break for hamas before the same shit starts back up. Going total war on gaza wouldnt even solve anything as hamas is bedded in and that would mostly just hurt civilians.

[MultiVerse]

Humanitarians in here. You oughta do some self reflection and delete that foul shit you've posted. There was a great evil in the past, so it's totally fine to commit another. Get a grip

Hamas & Iran are responsible for the suffering in Gaza

[californiagrown]

Hamas & Iran are responsible for the suffering in Gaza

OK.

Can anything be done by those other than Iran/Hamas to stop the suffering? Are you content to just let the suffering continue and chalk it up to "by others"?

[MultiVerse]

Yes, something can be done, people in the West can stop enabling the Palestinian cause which is explicitly in their own words: killing Jews. The Iranian/Hamas way of warfare is to use civilian casualties as their principal ammunition for winning the strategic information battle. So, instead of calling for the destruction of Israel, people should instead call for Palestinians to cooperate with Israelis.

Israelis have a higher PPP per-capita income than Germans. Israel needs workers. Apart from Israelis, Palestinians are the most highly educated people in the surrounding region. Israeli companies would happily pay Palestinians, rather than hiring workers from places like Thailand, if Palestinians weren't a clear and present terrorist threat. On top of which, Gaza has lovely Mediterranean beeches that could be a thriving tourist destination.

The combination of Israeli wealth and Gazan resource wealth would easily lift Palestinian society in a generation if they cast off their desire to murder Jews and instead embraced a good life well lived. Unfortunately, the addictive pleasure of anti-semitism is just too powerful of a drug for far too many people.

[summit]

Maybe we should build a wall around gaza and get hamas to pay for it? They are a bunch of rapists and murders.

There literally is a literal wall around Gaza. Egypt and Israel paid for it. On the Isreali side, it was to stop easy crossborder attacks from Gaza. On the Egyptian side it was to stop Palestinians from migrating (illegally) to Egypt. All around it was to stop weapons smuggling. The walls are why Hamas spends most of the Palestinian aid money on tunnels and Iranian rockets, because killing Jews is more important than anything else.

[californiagrown]

, Gaza has lovely Mediterranean beeches that could be a thriving tourist destination.

Jared? Is that you?