50 years to the day

[leroy jenkins]

My friend saw some of the beheading and dead baby vids/images. It crushed him. I chose not to bear witness that way.



I agree with all that except for the tyranny of lower expectations for the Palestinians which is also unfair to the Israelis. You can call for the highest standards for the Israelis, ideally. Clearly the SA subject currently at hand in no circumstance can it be hand waved or excused.

Stepping back to the bigger picture of conflict, it is damned hard for the Israelis to held to the highest standard in the world by a world that also excuses their opponent of having to live up to even lower standards because for some reason they are not expected to. The solution isn't excusing the Israelis, but it is recognizing that double standard and demanding the Palestinians live up to the highest standard. The Nazis weren't excused for being barbaric. Hamas?

A Nation State is held to higher standards than terrorists? Yea, real leap of logic there Genius.

Every post of yours in this thread is just pure prejeduce.

[californiagrown]

Just like people seem to forget al the events before 10/7 when they are horrified at the events of 10/7.

The targeted killing of civilians is never OK. The targeted raping of women is never OK. The targeted killing of children is never OK. None of that is justified, no matter what happened previously. Period. Full stop. Cannot be justified no matter what.


There is an argument to be made for Hamas to attack the Israeli military installations. I think there is even an argument to be made for Hamas to launch unguided rockets at israeli military installations that then fall on civilian areas- it could fall under the label of "collateral damage". However, +95% of the events on Oct 7th were completely unjustifiable. Period.

[m2711c]

“prejeduce”…? bless your heart, leroy.


fact.

[MultiVerse]

There is an argument to be made for Hamas to attack the Israeli military installations.

No there isn't "an argument to be made for Hamas to attack the Israeli military installations." That's a Leroy level of dumb takes. Hamas broke an existing ceasefire on Oct 7 to attack both Israeli military bases as well intentionally massacre & rape 1,200 Israelis, take hostages & hide in a vast tunnel network knowing Israel would have no choice but to bomb their human shield “martyrs.” Want human rights & peace? Save Gaza from Hamas & Iran!

[summit]

No there isn't an argument to be made for Hamas to attack the Israeli military installations." That's a Leroy level of dumb takes. Hamas broke an existing ceasefire on Oct 7 to attack both Israeli military bases as well intentionally massacre & rape 1,200 Israelis, take hostages & hide in a vast tunnel network knowing Israel would have no choice but to bomb their human shield “martyrs.” Want human rights & peace? Save Gaza from Hamas & Iran!

That and Hamas's primary motives for breaking the ceasefire?
#1 Destroy the peace process between Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Israel via the deaths of their human shields
#2 Maintain the support of the more violent and hateful terror factions in their governing coalition via the death of Israelis
#3 Trigger a regional war with the goal of destroying Israel

[MultiVerse]

Not only that, but these people who argue Hamas is bad but that Hamas's actions are justified are actual useful idiots. I don't know, maybe they just want to signal empathy. The first rule of understanding an issue however: it's not enough that your beliefs are intended to help fix some problem. Those beliefs must actually help fix it. And you can't take this for granted, because the easiest laziest beliefs mostly don't.

[californiagrown]

No there isn't "an argument to be made for Hamas to attack the Israeli military installations." !

If hamas was truly oppressed and occupied, and all diplomatic avenues were blocked, then attacking a military target is a next logical step. I dont agree that hamas/palestinians were truly oppressed and diplomacy was not possible... but if violence is teh answer, it should be violence against military targets. There is never a justifiable reason for targeted violence against civilians.

[MultiVerse]

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In response, people then point to Israel's arms embargo but that happened after Hamas repeatedly attacked Isreal. Why is it so hard for people to recognize that the overarching goal of Hamas and Palestinians is the destruction of Israel? That's it. That's the underlying cause of this conflict. Supporting the Palestinian cause means calling for the destruction of Israel "from the river to the sea."

[californiagrown]

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. In response, people then point to Israel's arms embargo but that happened after Hamas repeatedly attacked Isreal. Why is it so hard for people to recognize that the overarching goal of Hamas and Palestinians is the destruction of Israel? That's it. That's the underlying cause of this conflict.

Right. And if that's the case, they should be trying to destroy Israel's military. Targeting civilians achieves quite literally nothing toward their goal of destroying the state of israel. Its just causing human suffering out of evil spite. Attacking military targets (whether right or wrong) has tactical justification.

[riser4]

Regardless of how I feel about Israeli settler actions in the West Bank, there is nothing that justifies the heinous acts perpetrated by the terrorist organization known as Hamas on 10/7/2023. Nothing. Full stop.

[MultiVerse]

Right. And if that's the case, they should be trying to destroy Israel's military. Targeting civilians achieves quite literally nothing toward their goal of destroying the state of israel. Its just causing human suffering out of evil spite. Attacking military targets (whether right or wrong) has tactical justification.

Hamas wants Palestinian suffering. That's their strategy. New Jersey Imam Sheikh Ismail Hamdi in a sermon on Gaza: “We must want martyrdom. Paradise is amazing, but getting killed for the sake of Allah is even better.” The fact so many people here as well as around the world act as Hamas apologists shows the strategy is working.

[summit]

Right. And if that's the case, they should be trying to destroy Israel's military. Targeting civilians achieves quite literally nothing toward their goal of destroying the state of israel. Its just causing human suffering out of evil spite. Attacking military targets (whether right or wrong) has tactical justification.

I get what you are trying to say, that IF Palestinians wanted a proper and civilized war, as much as there is such a thing, that even if it was an unjustified war, there is still a proper way to conduct the war: military fights military. We all agree they aren't even pretending to do it that way.

What idealists forget is that the end of a military vs military war is supposed to be, in such a proper and civilized war, that when one military is defeated by the other, they surrender and agree to terms because the alternative is the horrible suffering that accompanies partisan/asymmetric/urban warfare necessary to fully subjugate a traditionally defeated fighting force. Oh wait...

[MultiVerse]

The Nakba is a retelling of a lost conventional war. The foundational myth of this conflict is a reimagining of a much stronger army's military defeat, in a war they started, at the hands of a weaker opponent to argue instead that their land was stolen. The insanity of this conflict is fueled by the now weaker opponent still trying to achieve by other means its original military goal of driving Israelis into sea.

[mcski]

Right. And if that's the case, they should be trying to destroy Israel's military. Targeting civilians achieves quite literally nothing toward their goal of destroying the state of israel. Its just causing human suffering out of evil spite. Attacking military targets (whether right or wrong) has tactical justification.

Dresden has entered the chat

[californiagrown]

Dresden has entered the chat

Dresden was a major railhub and industrial center for the Nazi war machine. As awful as the bombings were, there was a tactical military reason. Honest question: are workers voluntarily employed in a weapons-making factory considered civilians?


Targeting a music festival, targeting young children, widespread rape. No military tactical justification.

[ex-powderbroker]

.

[mcski]

Dresden was a major railhub and industrial center for the Nazi war machine. As awful as the bombings were, there was a tactical military reason. Honest question: are workers voluntarily employed in a weapons-making factory considered civilians?


Targeting a music festival, targeting young children, widespread rape. No military tactical justification.

That’s the spirit. Justify collateral terrorism and bouncing rubble with flimsy justifications. Fits right in here.

[Cisco Kid]

Dresden was unjustified. Churchill said the war had been won and of Dresden of little strategic value. But "Strategic value" is 20/20 hindsight.

I have never read an opinion that held the bombing of Dresden was a good thing.

So a very lousy comparison to Bibi's kill them all war methods.

[ex-powderbroker]

collateral terrorism, that’s a new one.

[Cono Este]

Dresden was unjustified. Churchill said the war had been won and of Dresden of little strategic value. But "Strategic value" is 20/20 hindsight.

I have never read an opinion that held the bombing of Dresden was a good thing.

So a very lousy comparison to Bibi's kill them all war methods.

Hindsight is 20=20

My grandad flew the raid.

When asked how he felt about it, he said they started it. He was from the coventry area, it burned, and his own house was flattened. He’d drop a broken brick out the window.

Hope that doesn’t offend you.

[Cisco Kid]

Offended? Moi? Lots of people felt lots of different emotions because of things they saw or did. How your paw paw felt is understandable. I've met a WWII bombardier who felt different. Most of those guys didn't feel anything if they could IME.

[summit]

Germany did start total war++ by intentionally targeting civilians at the start and throughout the war with the intent of killing and demoralizing the civilian population.

RAF tried to do precision bombing, but you can only do that during the day, and they got slaughtered. They said let the Yanks die in the daylight, if so inclined. RAF Bomber Command was doing area bombing at night with HE/incendiary loads to burn war industry and dehouse workers.

US 8AF did precision bombing during the day with HE targeting things like synthetic oil plants, rail marshalling yards, munitions plants, etc. The US kept getting slaughtered in the daytime to the point where we almost gave up daytime bombing. Dresden was an exception where the US did area bombing.

I'm NOT going to defend the Dresden raid, but I will say "but the war was over" is a bullshit argument against it. If it was over, the Nazis coulda surrendered. The war didn't end for another 3 months.

[ex-powderbroker]

seven months

[Cono Este]

He was bombing submarine pens on heglioland after war.

Surrender is always an option. Someone tell the Hamas lovers.

[ex-powderbroker]

Dresden was unjustified. Churchill said the war had been won and of Dresden of little strategic value.

let’s see some quotes.