Skitouring/mountaineerig advice, Yurp

[KANUTTEN]

A new season is approaching, and plans need to be made. For next season me and a buddy want to combine a ski touring/mountaineering trip to the alps with more resort based skiing and possibly a day or two of heliskiing. The idea is to start the vacation with 3-5 days of touring. Then end up in a very good skiarea where a bunch of friends are spending their skivacation. We will spend another 3-5 days there with a combination of good resort based skiing and also heliskiing.

The question is; where is the best place for this? One thought is to skitour from Andermatt to Engelberg, and then stay there. Another is to skitour from ??somewhere?? to Colmayeur and then spend the rest of the vacation there. Third, the Silvretta area is also a possibility. I am sure there are plenty of other suitable places as well. I guess we want the touring to be scenic with excellent skiing, and possibly with some skimountaineering to throw in as well. Emphasis on excellent and challenging skiing. For the skiarea, it needs to combine very good off-piste skiing with intermediate slope based skiing, as our friends come in all varieties skiing wise. It would be good if it is possible to heliski in the area as well.

A second question is whether we can do the touring part on our own, or whether it should be done with guides. In case we need guides, any recommendations.

So if anyone has ideas experiences or anything that can help us, throw it at me! All advice is appreciated

[Arno]

Would have thought that something ending in the Monte Rosa area might fit the bill. You can heliski there and it has lots of great off-piste. You could start in any number of places - top of the Val d'Herens, Verbier maybe, Zinal area maybe (might need to get a bit of a move on though), Arolla. Or you could just do the classic Monte Rosa circuit from Zermatt and finish in Gressoney rather than Zermatt.

Edit: all the places I have mentioned are glaciated, so unless you're experienced, I'd take a guide. If you have the cash, guides are always worthwhile IMO - they reduce a lot of the stress and if the conditions crap out, they often find a way for you to have an enjoyable day which you might not manage left to your own devices. Don't really know guides in that area - sure someone will chime in though

[Hicks]

Heliskiing = prohibited in Austria (except Vorarlberg) and I think in France too.

Italian Val Savarenche and Val Grisenche come to mind if you want to heliski. The Haute Route Valdotaine is the Italian counterpart to the classic Haute Route in that region when talking about touring. Start with the Grand Paradiso and work your way north towards Courmayeur, much less traffic than in Switzerland.
Or stay at the Rifugio Benevolo for a couple of touring days, great area there and more convenient especially if you are novice to AT (but glaciated too).

[Choucas]

Another good option is to do everything out of Gressoney on the Italian side of the Monte Rosa. Plenty of touring options, both day trips, point to point and circuits. I'd higly recommend guides unless you are extremely proficient in winter glacier travel. Even then, you'll hit better snow and find better terrain with guides. For guides, check in with Carlo Cugnetto at: www.guidemonterosa.com. The site is in Italian and it doesn't have their winter program yet. You can e-mail in English and they'll get back to you. The other piece of the puzzle is that Carlo's family runs the Hotel DuFour in Gressoney, www.hoteldufour.it, which is right at the base of the lifts. There's great piste and off-piste skiing for all levels out of Gressoney with easy lift access into Champoluc and Alagna. It's a huge ski area covering three valleys. Reasonably snow sure, less expensive than most resorts (hotel, lifts and guide fees are a bit lower), the only shortcomings are lack of nightlife (some down the valley in Gressoney St. Jean), not much tree skiing if the weather socks in, and it can get windy. You can heli-ski out of Gressoney too. The guides set that up. Fantastic scenery. You can do a one day circuit through Zermatt and back that includes a heli ride to the Lysjoch and looong run to Zermatt. Plenty of very steep stuff if you're up for it. I've skied there twice with Carlo's guides and would go again in a heartbeat.

[Lostinthetrees]

The Haute Route Valdotaine is the Italian counterpart to the classic Haute Route in that region when talking about touring. Start with the Grand Paradiso and work your way north towards Courmayeur, much less traffic than in Switzerland.

Will say again. Follow the snow. Fine to make plans, but would reco you make plans for 3 - 4 different areas. Then, depending on conditions, hit it.

If you had taken a southern tour (for instance Aoste - Grand St. Bernard - Cervin/Zermatt) you would have been carrying your skis for much of the route in Dec until the end of Jan and, then again, in March. Italian Alpes got a dire amount of snow and when it did snow enough it melted quickly. A very warm season last year for the Southern Alpes. Timing was everything.

Les Alpes Bernoise (Engleberg) and everything east into Austria got pounded regularly last season.

But, as Ripzalot says, last season is not a reliable indicator for this upcoming season. Again, keep your options open and follow the snow (forecasts and results).

Regarding ski randonee and touring in the Alpes try:

http://www.skirando.ch/

This is best site I have found for technical and reliable info. Maps, too. Become a member and use the forum.

[davidof]

Take a look at the site in my sig if you are going to France.

[Meathelmet]

Well, i would second on the aosta valley, if you want to heliski.

You have regular operations in Val Savaranche and Val Grisenche, and the arrangeable skiing from Staffal (gressoney) and Colle di Salati (gressoney-aosta pass) as Hicks said.

The possibility to skitour depends a LOT wich time of season you plan to go.
The cervinia-monterosa-zermatt round trip,or any part of it, is virtually impossible to do before february. The routes crosses extremely crevassed parts wich very rarely have enough coverage/strength during the early season.

Gettin from cervinia to champlouc (and via that way to gressoney) is though very possible, if you take a variation of a route. You dont even need to cross any glaciers. In normal weather, the cervinia-champoluc takes only one day.If you want to take a longer variation to gressoney, you can easily spend a day to go to the Refugio Quintino Sella,overnight and come down to gressoney: OR you can continue to Ref.Citta Di Mantova (not wardened during winter) or Ref.Gugliemina.From gugliemina you can drop down to alagna or gressoney.

Other possibilities is for example :
1.to do the Cham-Courmayer via north or south,
2.do some touring from La Rosier (FR) to La thuile (IT) or Pila (IT)
3.tour around the grand paradiso (no ski installations there)
4.do the courmayer-cervinia or zermatt ,wich in the wintertime (dec-march) is the most hardcore of those suggested.

but what ever you choose, you will have sooo much possibilites to play around.
enjoy!

[verbier61]

not so much to add, agree with most of the suggestions, just two minor issues:
- there are no lifts in the gran paradiso area... you can count only on skins.
- heliski is huge in the trient area of the mont blanc, which ca be reached from the swiss and italian spots near by
- stay flexible... heliski is a very expensive pleasure which makes sense only when the wheather is really ok

[KANUTTEN]

Thanks for ideas, folks.

In terms of priorities, the touring should be really good. But it is also necessary that the final destination has something for everyone. The place must have good off-piste skiing, but also piste based skiing for intermediate level (this is to keep our girlfriend/wife happy). And last, there should be some sort of nightlife as well. I can't see any of us doing too much dancing, but a relatively lively afterski would be appreciated. So a little bit of everything, really. Heliskiing is sort of an added bonus, but not essential.

So far tours ending up in Gressoney have been mentioned the most. I am a bit worried that it might be a little bit dull for the afterski sessions. In terms of following the conditions, it is a luxury we don't have. Reservations for 10-15 people (friends) will have to be made in advance. The time will probably be in the beginning of march.

Thanks again, and follow up is still appreciated.

[Meathelmet]

And last, there should be some sort of nightlife as well. I can't see any of us doing too much dancing, but a relatively lively afterski would be appreciated. So a little bit of everything, really. Heliskiing is sort of an added bonus, but not essential.

So far tours ending up in Gressoney have been mentioned the most. I am a bit worried that it might be a little bit dull for the afterski sessions.

Well, seems like you are after partying, so you can drop gressoney and alagna off right away, you party animals.

There are very,very,limited "party scene" there.

You have few very nice eateries and bars, that arrange partys from time to time. Those party´s rule though! They have a certain end-of-the-world schtimmung in them....

In gressoney St.Jean you have few good eateries and propably one of the comfiest place in the valley, Brasserie Paul Verlaine, run by Patric é Serena. Those guys are prolly the friendliest and helpfull people around.A truly classic duo. They also opened up their new bar/pub in Staffal : The Core. It´s right beside the brigde and the end of the salati slopes. In both places they have superb italian foods (remember to ask for Stinko..) , good music, good people and feeling. Cant say enough good things about those places.

In Gressoney La Trinite you have couple good places to eat : one is the damn pizzeria wich name i forgot,one a bit more "chic" finer dining beside the church, and one very nice bar/pub run my one michele(?),i just happen to have a complete dementia at the moment, so i cant remeber their names...

Well, anyway, you can eat out in different places almost every night, have good times drinking beer in afterski, enjoy a bottle of wine or two in the evening.But, if you are up to afterski á la St.Anton,want to disco-disco and show up in the night, that place is definetly not for you.

In that case head for courmayer, it has the "biggest" party scene of the aosta valley resorts. And thats not much.

So if you are into partying, try chamonix area or got to austria.There you dance schlagers untill you drop.

[TeleAl]

Enjoy that trip. Let me know if I can help you organize something.

I have a few guide's name (pm me) but I am not sure you need one. I know others that do these types of trips without guides. It all depends on you.

And, let me know where you will be, I might be interested to rally with you.

[Lostinthetrees]

In terms of priorities, the touring should be really good. ...something for everyone. ...good off-piste skiing, but also piste based skiing for intermediate level (this is to keep our girlfriend/wife happy). And last, there should be some sort of nightlife...

... In terms of following the conditions, it is a luxury we don't have. Reservations for 10-15 people (friends) will have to be made in advance. The time will probably be in the beginning of march.

Since this is a fixed week, many people with diverse abilities and interests, and not a road trip...

Verbier.
- Great touring choices; east (towards Cervin/Zermatt), west (towards Mt Blanc) and south (Gd St Bernard, Val Ferret, Grand Combin). Plenty of guides.
- Party town. lots of bling bling and euro-trash.
- Rent a big chalet.
- Wide variety of choice piste action and plenty off. also, inconnected areas expand territory to be skied.

my reco... as long as this is not Easter week!

[verbier61]

well, it's true. If (ski &) nightlife is an hot issue, verbier is the place. Said that, just let me know if I can be of any help. If you're 15 people, a big chalet is what you need

[KANUTTEN]

Verbier actually sounds like a good idea. I don't know much about the touring in the area, but the place fits the bill in other respects.

But what do you guys think about Engelberg as an alternative? The touring from Andermatt to Engelberg is very good, from what I hear (and have seen). Skiing for all levels in Engelberg, and a reasonable (not great) nightlife. Easy access to/from zurich airport too...

[verbier61]

Verbier actually sounds like a good idea. I don't know much about the touring in the area, but the place fits the bill in other respects.

But what do you guys think about Engelberg as an alternative? The touring from Andermatt to Engelberg is very good, from what I hear (and have seen). Skiing for all levels in Engelberg, and a reasonable (not great) nightlife. Easy access to/from zurich airport too...

touring in verb is super. It's exactly in the middle of the cham-zermatt haute route, and you can skin from mont blanc to Gr S Bernard to aosta valley.... neverending.

Sorry I'm not familiar enough with engelberg to tell anything interesting. They speak german, but the place is full of scandi (as is verb, though).

[Lostinthetrees]

Since this is a fixed week, many people with diverse abilities and interests, and not a road trip...

on second thought... Aspen



seriously, i have no winter experience in les alpes bernoises.

last year central and eastern CH had a storm every week. For most of the season Valais was dry and at times too warm. Generally, the same was true for Italy, too.

but, who knows what will happen this year.

[KANUTTEN]

Follow up Q;

I think prolly Engelberg or St.Anton, or possibly the Engadin area are the best bets wrt consistent snow conditions (more info on Engadin would be great). The time would be latter part of March.

We are also leaning toward not going with a guide, as this is really pricy, and we are reasonably experienced in the mountains/glaciers. Do anyone have specific suggestions regarding a 3-5 day touring option that ends up in Engelberg, St Anton or Engadin? Are there any guidebooks in English that makes it easy to understand what route to take. Also, what is the best resort to stay in in the Engadin area? Is heliskiing an option in the Engadin area?

Answers to my neverending and tedious questions are still very much appreciated.

[Arno]

Do anyone have specific suggestions regarding a 3-5 day touring option that ends up in Engelberg, St Anton or Engadin? Are there any guidebooks in English that makes it easy to understand what route to take.

This might be worth a look. It's certainly well written - forget exactly which tours it has. I'll try to have a look this evening.

[Hicks]

Regarding AT:

To St. Anton:
Start at Galtür, ascent to Jamtal or Wiesbaden Hut and do the round trip via Heibronner and Verwall hut down into St. Anton. Easily doable within 4 days but final descent into the Stanzer valley requires safe conditions.

Engadin:
The Albula Crossing starts ot at Susch or Zernez, crosses the Piz Kesch and ends on Julier Pass above St. Moritz.

To Engelberg:
Start at Guttanen or Furka Pass and cross Galenstock, Dammastock, Sustenhorn, Cristallina to Sustenpass and approach Engelberg from the South.

No clue about heliskiing in the Engadin area, sorry.

[Lostinthetrees]

Follow up Q;

I think prolly Engelberg or St.Anton, or possibly the Engadin area are the best bets wrt consistent snow conditions (more info on Engadin would be great). The time would be latter part of March.

We are also leaning toward not going with a guide, as this is really pricy, and we are reasonably experienced in the mountains/glaciers. Do anyone have specific suggestions regarding a 3-5 day touring option that ends up in Engelberg, St Anton or Engadin?

If you match up the info in that book that was suggested...

with that site I ALREADY gave you (the BEST for touring/ski rando in CH) ...

with this:

www.sac-cas.ch
(Suisse Alpine Club who manages many, many mountain huts).

...with some effort on your part, you will be able to figure it out.

[cj001f]

As a slight hijack, anyone know of a list of Alps touring guidebooks? (English/French preffered, any others welcome) I've got the O'connor books, but am interested in others.

[Hicks]

As a slight hijack, anyone know of a list of Alps touring guidebooks? (English/French preffered, any others welcome) I've got the O'connor books, but am interested in others.

Not sure whether such a list exists but best bet is browsing the alpine clubs' homepages for literature.

Suisse: SAC
France Club Alpine Francais (CAF)
Italy: CAI
Austria: OeAV
Germany: DAV

[Meathelmet]

As a slight hijack, anyone know of a list of Alps touring guidebooks? (English/French preffered, any others welcome) I've got the O'connor books, but am interested in others.

I have couple, lets see if I can find a few...


Goes away to the mansions library

[Arno]

This might be worth a look. It's certainly well written - forget exactly which tours it has. I'll try to have a look this evening.

Had a look now - I think that book - Alpine Ski Mountaineering Vol2 by Bill O'Connor - would certainly be a good start. It's got the Albula traverse; Tour Soleil (which starts near Andermatt); Bernina (quite full on mountaineering); Silvretta (not too far from St Anton) and Oetztal (a bit further from St Anton, but easily doable in a day by public transport).

[KANUTTEN]

That is great advice, much appreciated!

The book is ordered, and will at least be a way to narrow down the options.

Planning the winter is almost as much fun as actually skiing (well, not really, but more fun than working anyway )