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  1. #76
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    ONK, what's the logic behind selling the mimic foam separately from the liners now?

    Why would someone consumer-side ever buy the liner but not the foam? Or the foam but not the liner?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by optics View Post
    ONK, what's the logic behind selling the mimic foam separately from the liners now?

    Why would someone consumer-side ever buy the liner but not the foam? Or the foam but not the liner?
    Separating the foam from the liner is done so we can manage expired foam cartridges. Liners don't expire, but the foam cartridges do. When we put the foam cartridges in the liner boxes, we have to open every single liner box, check their expiration dates, and then swap out foams, which is not practical. With the foam cartridges now being a separately boxed item, we can manage this more efficiently, with less wasted time and less waste in general.

    This also allows our retailers to stock a larger liner offer and yet only need to keep a smaller number of foam cartridges on hand to ensure less foam goes to waste.

  3. #78
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    Got it. Thanks for the explanation.

    I guess this would be bad for margins, but customer-side, a person might expect that removing the foam from the liner product would lower the price...maybe by the cost of the foam? Chunky little price increase (as a % of product price) to have to buy it separately now.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by optics View Post
    Got it. Thanks for the explanation.

    I guess this would be bad for margins, but customer-side, a person might expect that removing the foam from the liner product would lower the price...maybe by the cost of the foam? Chunky little price increase (as a % of product price) to have to buy it separately now.
    We experienced cost increases on our end, especially on the foam. The net price would have been the same either way.

  5. #80
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    Got a pair arriving today. Should I just mold the liner first or go with a shell/liner mold at the same time?

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkendrenchman View Post
    Got a pair arriving today. Should I just mold the liner first or go with a shell/liner mold at the same time?
    I skied mine unmolded and it was surprisingly good right off the bat for my wide, no arch feet. Of course it's feet dependent but perhaps ski them for a bit to let foot warmth alone somewhat mold the liner then go from there?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkendrenchman View Post
    Got a pair arriving today. Should I just mold the liner first or go with a shell/liner mold at the same time?
    Put them on and wear them around the house for 2 hours. If you are feeling pretty good after that, you can probably just heat mold the liners. If you have to take them off within 30-40 minutes, you'd better cook the shells too.

    In my experience, however, almost everyone can benefit from a shell mold as well as the liner mold, not just in terms of widening the forefoot for width issues at the first and fifth mets but also getting the ankle to wrap more accurately and raising the instep if needed, plus adjusting for minor alignment issues.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Put them on and wear them around the house for 2 hours. If you are feeling pretty good after that, you can probably just heat mold the liners. If you have to take them off within 30-40 minutes, you'd better cook the shells too.

    In my experience, however, almost everyone can benefit from a shell mold as well as the liner mold, not just in terms of widening the forefoot for width issues at the first and fifth mets but also getting the ankle to wrap more accurately and raising the instep if needed, plus adjusting for minor alignment issues.
    What's the recommended temperature / procedure for memory fitting the shell at home?

  9. #84
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    Got my first couple days in the boa hawx. Drasticallly improved downhill performance for my 29.5s vs previous hawx XTDs. Skied with the same wrap liner. Good enough that I'm considering doing some inbounds duty with them vs my Mach1 LVs, something I wouldn't even consider in the grilamid boot. Once some real terrain opens up here maybe I'll change my mind, but I'm pretty psyched to have a low volume fit in a legit "50/50" boot. Skied on a 192 Mfree 108, because what's got gripwalk afds on it right now in the quiver. Groomers and some early season chunder. I'm 6'5" 215#

    My mach LVs are punched for width in the forefoot, no other work. I've skied two days in the hawx (same liner) and have been pretty happy. Will likely have to punch for medial malleolus, but otherwise feel pretty good. They definitely fit a little wider in the forefoot than the previous version (apparently due to more flexible plastic which is believable.) Might still punch a little. The hawx cuff, like previous versions, is much lower volume than the tecnica, a feature I absolutely love.

    Compared to the cochise (previous gen, but the new one felt pretty similar to me) I guess I disagree with greg. The cochise was too high volume basically everywhere for me even with a thicker liner, whereas the hawx is working with the liner I use in my mach lv's. It's been a little while since I skied that cochise, but I think it might still have an edge in stiffness.

    The boa: count me as skeptic who's sold. Low instep and wide forefoot means that usually my instep buckle is cranked and my toe buckle is dangling so I didn't think the boa would work. Somehow it does anyway. I was able to compare side by side buckle version with boa and the boa was clearly superior for my foot anyway. Agree with others that somehow the boa provides better lockdown even when it's not cranked. Only concern is I'm sorta close to running out of cable when tight. It's also more annoying to re-tighten each lap than a buckle.

    Love the cuff height and adjustable lean for the m-fing win. The heel pocket is a little shallow for me or something, but it hasn't irritated my heel bones yet. In bigger terrain with harder flexing it still might though. The old hawx would, and I imagine it had to do with me collapsing it frequently. Still harder to get on and off than most boots, but something I do not care about. They won't be my camping boots.

    Re fit vs the grilamid version my sense is that the forefoot fits wider but that I'm able to get the same fit from instep to top of cuff without undue cranking of buckles. Again, this is with the same liner, not stock. And it's for sure more packed out than it was when it was in the grilamid boots, so there's that.

    No touring around here yet, but the walk mode is the basically unchanged (right?) and i'll be using aftermarket liners anyway so that's a known quantity for me. I have real touring boots for big days. My standards for ROM have definitely changed since I owned the first gen xtds so I'm curious how it'll play now 5 years later, but for this class of boot i think it's good... is there anything better in a PU crossover?

    29.5 shells only = 1550g
    If anyone cares, I can weigh the liners when I figure out where I put them. They're heavy.

    Overall I'm fucking psyched that this boot exists and pretty certain it's going to find a place in the quiver.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhetherMan View Post
    No touring around here yet, but the walk mode is the basically unchanged (right?) and i'll be using aftermarket liners anyway so that's a known quantity for me. I have real touring boots for big days. My standards for ROM have definitely changed since I owned the first gen xtds so I'm curious how it'll play now 5 years later, but for this class of boot i think it's good... is there anything better in a PU crossover?

    29.5 shells only = 1550g
    .
    Nice ! Good to see other viewpoints.

    26.5 shell is 1400g fyi. Walk mode is unchanged from V1 Hawx so shouldn't be surprises for you.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by garuda View Post
    What's the recommended temperature / procedure for memory fitting the shell at home?
    Is there a reason you need to do it at home? In my home convection oven, you can only get on shell at a time in, which means you basically have to do them one at a time and stand on a 2x4 or something with your other leg . . . plus you usually want heat stacks or another oven to do the liner simultaneously. Should be plenty of competent Atomic shops in your area.

    I think I've mentioned this before either in this thread or the other Atomic one: In the shop, we do ten minutes with a cold oven, eight minutes with a pre-heated one. The ovens are set to 117 C. (about 242 F.) and are convection. Put the part of the boot you want to modify most at the upper back of the oven.

    Try to get as close to this as you can in a home oven, but you have limited options for "practice" runs . . . probably best to set the temp at ~250 F. and run it for 15 minutes with a thermometer in it, see what the temperature is and adjust accordingly (the dial on my home ovens isn't that accurate).

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Put them on and wear them around the house for 2 hours. If you are feeling pretty good after that, you can probably just heat mold the liners. If you have to take them off within 30-40 minutes, you'd better cook the shells too.
    Just curious - is there a reason to heat mold the liners when the stock shell+ liner combo feels good?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Just curious - is there a reason to heat mold the liners when the stock shell+ liner combo feels good?
    The question is how good. 98% of the people will get a better fit around the heel and ankle with a mold and be more comfortable for the first few days. A lot of the "just go ski them, they'll pack out" sentiment is a holdover from before the days of heat moldable closed-cell EVA.

    If you're one of those people who believe buying a new boot means you "deserve" to feel some pain, go ahead and ski them out of the box.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    The question is how good. 98% of the people will get a better fit around the heel and ankle with a mold and be more comfortable for the first few days. A lot of the "just go ski them, they'll pack out" sentiment is a holdover from before the days of heat moldable closed-cell EVA.

    If you're one of those people who believe buying a new boot means you "deserve" to feel some pain, go ahead and ski them out of the box.
    Thanks. That makes a lot of sense

  15. #90
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    Ordered the different boot boards and the gnar bar today, because why not.

    Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    Is there a reason you need to do it at home? In my home convection oven, you can only get on shell at a time in, which means you basically have to do them one at a time and stand on a 2x4 or something with your other leg . . . plus you usually want heat stacks or another oven to do the liner simultaneously. Should be plenty of competent Atomic shops in your area.

    I think I've mentioned this before either in this thread or the other Atomic one: In the shop, we do ten minutes with a cold oven, eight minutes with a pre-heated one. The ovens are set to 117 C. (about 242 F.) and are convection. Put the part of the boot you want to modify most at the upper back of the oven.

    Try to get as close to this as you can in a home oven, but you have limited options for "practice" runs . . . probably best to set the temp at ~250 F. and run it for 15 minutes with a thermometer in it, see what the temperature is and adjust accordingly (the dial on my home ovens isn't that accurate).
    What is the proper method of heating the shell and liner (at a shop)? Let the shell heat the liner? Or heat both?

  17. #92
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    Picked up Boa version today. All 3 pairs are 27.5 with stock liners
    Here are some weight observations:

    2022 Hawx Ultra 130S, professional strap, Superfeet insoles per boot 1868 gr

    2023 Hawx Ultra 130 XTD, Sidas insoles 1661 gr

    2024 Hawx Ultra 130 XTD Boa, stock insoles, 1866 gr

    Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkendrenchman View Post
    What is the proper method of heating the shell and liner (at a shop)? Let the shell heat the liner? Or heat both?
    With the Hawx Ultra XTD BOA boot and a Mimic liner? There are two layers that need heat to mold, the intermediate EVA foam layer inside the liner and the outer Mimic layer - if you heat the shell long enough (i.e. 10 minutes), you will have enough residual heat to also mold the outer part of the liner. If you only heat the shell for, say, 6 minutes, you will want to heat the liner itself in the oven to soften the Mimic material (usually 4 minutes or so, until the Strobl sole just starts to peel at the toe). If you are also trying to get the EVA foam to mold around the ankle and midfoot, you can also put the liners on heat stacks prior to the oven. There are people who insist you get more shell movement if you don't also heat the liner, but this kind of goes out the window if you're trying to get more width in the forefoot, as there's no EVA there to speak of.

    So the answer is "either" depending on how long you're heating the shell, but we usually heat both.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkendrenchman View Post
    What is the proper method of heating the shell and liner (at a shop)? Let the shell heat the liner? Or heat both?
    General PSA :

    Memory Fit is not a customization process that everyone should do. It specifically exists to make your boot wider. If you need that, awesome - go for it. But if you're like me and don't need more width, skip it.

    Mimic is a customization process that everyone should do. It specifically exists to remold unique materials in the liner to your individual rear foot & lower leg and to the shell shape, especially if you've had any work done back there.

    If you genuinely need Memory Fit done, Mimic can be done at the same time. The ideal way to do it is with two Memory Fit ovens (one for the shells, one for the liner) so both shells & liners can be heated on the same timeline (5 minutes) and molded to you at the same time.

    If the shop doesn't have two Memory Fit ovens, they at least need one Memory Fit oven and one hot-air liner machine. Liners go on the liner machine for 10 minutes. Once that time is up, shells are in the oven for 5 minutes and liners get heated again on the liner machine for another 5 minutes. Again, the goal is to have both shells & liners done and ready to be molded to you at the same time.

  20. #95
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    Thanks for the info. I put in my molded 22-23 liner and it skis damn close to my Ultra. Guess I’ll mold the new liner now.
    Last edited by funkendrenchman; 12-08-2023 at 01:14 PM.

  21. #96
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    Anyone compare how these ski vs a Cochise? Was surprised they are basically the same weight.

  22. #97
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    For me the Cochise is stiffer off the top and through the flex harder to find the end. The XTD is softer with more progression but the end point is quite a bit softer over the Cochise.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by onenerdykid View Post
    Memory Fit is not a customization process that everyone should do.
    On the other hand, it won't make the fit worse, and provides a service they can't duplicate at home.

    Almost no one has a "perfect" fit in any boot, even if they basically have the ideal foot shape for a given shell. A thorough Memory Fit heat mold will fine tune the fit for issues like medial midfoot bulges, cuff tightness, minor stance anomalies and let the cuff wrap better even if their foot is already a "Prime" or "Ultra" foot. I do literally hundreds of Memory Fit heat molds a season and to a person they report the fit is remarkably better "after" the molding process.

  24. #99
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    Extremely unscientific off-snow data point:

    me: 5-11, 205, 27.5
    Left foot hawx ultra 130s, stock mimic liner, 3-strap booster. Liner cooked no shell work.
    Right foot hawx ultra xtd 130 boa, stock strap, chip to the 13* forward lean option. no liner or shell work, fresh out of the box.


    Boa boot flexes slightly softer but is more progressive. Never hits a wall for better or for worse.
    With all weight on one leg and weight pushed way forward over the toes, boa boot flexes maybe 1-2* deeper. Granted I am standing on the floor so I can see how it could feel problematic with the force of a big ski and speed pushing into that additional flex.

    Interestingly - as ONK said in the other thread - the bellowing/deformity of the clog and how that ties to the tightness of the lower buckles is also a big factor. Maxing out the flex on the non-boa hawx, there is a lot of bellowing with the instep buckle loose. When I tighten it enough to reduce the bellowing, my 5th met screams.

    On the boa boot there was bellowing but less. When I crank the boa, nothing hurts - and the bellowing is gone, which makes the boot feel stiffer.

    My amateur non-bootfitter mindset on these is that if you want to drive a traditional ski in a traditional stance, this is still the wrong boot, same as it was the wrong boot before the boa version.

    I'm trying to get my old-man traditional stance trained into a more upright/balanced stance. And my biggest pain point over the past few seasons has been around clog tightness and related problems....so for me this tech and this boot feels compatible with where I'm trying to take things. The boa really is a game-changer at least on carpet. Hard to imagine it won't translate well to the hill. I'll report back.

    As always YMMV.

    /blog

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkiLyft View Post
    For me the Cochise is stiffer off the top and through the flex harder to find the end. The XTD is softer with more progression but the end point is quite a bit softer over the Cochise.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

    totally agree with this, couldn't have summed it up better.

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