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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Agree. Itís complicated. I thought this article was a good summary of the various metrics and data: https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug...ecord-straight
    Good to see the EU metrics laid out.

    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Empathy and compassion are what work, if that means decriminalizing/legalizing thatís fine. Most of the criminal problems associated with drugs are because our drug are illegal. Fix that and then address the addiction problem. Itís a long row to hoe and we all stand to lose or gain a lot. What weíre doing now isnít working.
    It isnít working.

    One thing I didnít notice discussed here is whether thereís a significant benefit to taking business away from illegal drug manufacturers, traffickers, and dealers by legalizing opioids. Just spitballing it seems like an awful lot of pain, chaos, and destruction could be mitigated by taking business away from illegal labs, cartels, and gangs.

    There are some good discussion points here, but even though legalization might bring some people to try harder drugs (and suffer for it), the reduction of stigmatization and criminal punishment could lead to better understanding, recovery treatment, and rehab. The reduction in crime, both street and organized, could be really significant.

    I understand the fear associated with the social costs of decriminalizing/legalizing harder drugs, but illegal drugs also have huge social costs. As noted above, what weíre doing now isnít working. Iím leaning toward decriminalizing and possibly legalizing.

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Empathy and compassion are what work, if that means decriminalizing/legalizing that’s fine. Most of the criminal problems associated with drugs are because our drug are illegal. Fix that and then address the addiction problem. It’s a long row to hoe and we all stand to lose or gain a lot. What we’re doing now isn’t working.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    agreed >empathy and compassion work

    But, every case is different and the amount of compassion for someone that is stealing from you gets pretty thin and that is the road many hardcore addicts end up on. Many of them will not 'want' to quit until they hit absolute rock bottom. Ask anyone who has dealt with a person like that... they wind up burning every relationship/bridge. They hit the point they really want to quit when their friends and family have had enough and already said goodbye.

    This is why I think legalization is a horrific idea... we would enable millions of people that would end up as a burden to society. Then only paid professionals would want to deal with them in recovery.

    I respond to security calls for these people and one thing in common with the caregivers is that they are mentally and physically taxed from the workload already. IT TAKES 5 PEOPLE TO HOLD DOWN SOMEONE TO FORCEFULLY MEDIACTE a person, and then we have to strap them down sometimes. You can't imagine the stuff they yell when they are freaking out>it would even make people on this forum cringe. The whole ''legalize opioids" feels like a narrative from an industry that wants to profit off addiction but is not in direct contact with these people.

    I loved experimenting with drugs as a young adult, and am not against it.

    Still >people are stupid and weak minded, we say it all the time here on TGR... and creating a generation of addicts is a bad idea. We wont have the resources to deal with it.

    Other have different opinions, and maybe they are right? Nothing is etched in stone

  3. #278
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    Maybe we should elect our own Rodrigo Duterte ….

    “If I make it to the presidential palace I will do just what I did as mayor. You drug pushers, holdup men, and do-nothings, you better get out because I'll kill you.”

  4. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    Maybe we should elect our own Rodrigo Duterte Ö.

    ďIf I make it to the presidential palace I will do just what I did as mayor. You drug pushers, holdup men, and do-nothings, you better get out because I'll kill you.Ē
    Howíd that work out for Duterte? You forgot that he also advocated for the extra judicial killing of users too


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  5. #280
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    I wasn’t at all serious.

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    I wasnít at all serious.
    I didnít think so.




    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  7. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by baron View Post
    This is why I think legalization is a horrific idea... we would enable millions of people that would end up as a burden to society. Then only paid professionals would want to deal with them in recovery.
    Not sure what country you live in.. but we're already well past this point where I live. I can count on one hand the number of people I know who didn't smoke weed until it became legal.

    And again, youths can get the illegal stuff easier than they can get the legal stuff.. At least in my experience and that of my 19 and 20 year old kids.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Not sure what country you live in.. but we're already well past this point where I live. I can count on one hand the number of people I know who didn't smoke weed until it became legal.

    And again, youths can get the illegal stuff easier than they can get the legal stuff.. At least in my experience and that of my 19 and 20 year old kids.
    The minor as a user thing is a whole different conversation. Hearing of deaths of youth because of fentanyl spiked recreational drugs, let alone teenaged addiction is a whole other level of rage. Makes me want to go to medieval on the purveyor of cheap street drugs. Too emotional on that front to have a rational opinion. And that carrys over to alcohol and legal weed too. Even more pressure to clean up the supply, but no way should these harmful substances be easy to get as a minor.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    The minor as a user thing is a whole different conversation. Hearing of deaths of youth because of fentanyl spiked recreational drugs, let alone teenaged addiction is a whole other level of rage. Makes me want to go to medieval on the purveyor of cheap street drugs. Too emotional on that front to have a rational opinion. And that carrys over to alcohol and legal weed too. Even more pressure to clean up the supply, but no way should these harmful substances be easy to get as a minor.
    Some jurisdictions they charge the dealer with murder, in the case of overdoses. It doesn’t seem to have reduced the supply of dealers if the number of cases are an indication.

  10. #285
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    Thatís pretty draconian and fucked up but I guess we gotta feed the prison industrial complex

  11. #286
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    Just like post prohibition and the current weed trade where legal, licensed dealers have the incentive to help shut down/snitch on the criminal dealers, and the IRS takes care of the rest..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  12. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Some jurisdictions they charge the dealer with murder, in the case of overdoses. It doesnít seem to have reduced the supply of dealers if the number of cases are an indication.
    Oh I get it. But in the case of minors, I have no tears for the dealer, even less for the pusher. Like I said, I recognize in this aspect I can not offer a rational perspective. The conversation here begins and ends at the age of legal adulthood. That goes for any of the social exploitations - be it religion, addiction, or consumption. Youth ainít necessarily innocent, but fuck those predators that would feed off it for personal gain.

  13. #288
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    JFC

    TH is on the front lines. It’s not all sunshine and rainbows. The warm farina we’ve been fed doesn’t really work irl. The myth of healthy junkies doesn’t really equal reality.

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    Oh I get it. But in the case of minors, I have no tears for the dealer, even less for the pusher. Like I said, I recognize in this aspect I can not offer a rational perspective. The conversation here begins and ends at the age of legal adulthood. That goes for any of the social exploitations - be it religion, addiction, or consumption. Youth ain’t necessarily innocent, but fuck those predators that would feed off it for personal gain.
    the high school senior/juco Stoner dealing drugs to high schoolers is replaceable and there’ll be another one next year. The family of the dead might get some sense of Justice from the dealers incarceration but it isn’t changing the nature of the unreliable commodity illegal drugs are, or the market for them very much.

  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    the high school senior/juco Stoner dealing drugs to high schoolers is replaceable and thereíll be another one next year. The family of the dead might get some sense of Justice from the dealers incarceration but it isnít changing the nature of the commodity, or the market for it.
    The minor that is also a dealer. Full stop. They remain a victim in my worldview. Not innocent, but not subject to the crime of an adult preying on the youth. Should this be 18? 21? 14? Dunno, and open to the debate. But that adult fucker supplying that 17yo dealer should be punished. Harsh and publicly.

    I rode the school bus with kids (one was <13yo) who grew their own weed and sold to their mates. He was just modeling his parents. Fuck his folks, but his case would be a hard one to adjudicate. And that was just mj.

  16. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ųtzi
    often read that Heroin is lot easier on the system over time than alcohol is.
    I would agree with you in that ethanol is a very dirty compound with many different cellular targets in many different tissues, and that prolonged abuse often results in extensive damage to many different systems.

    But I would disagree that with opioids the acute lethal dose isn’t what we are concerned about; I think the risk of OD is exactly what is troubling about these compounds.

    There are many alcoholics who have destroyed themselves with a lifetime of drinking, but it’s hard to find junkies who have been on the horse for decades. Dee Dee Ramone had a good long run though, but I think he’s the exception.
    Last edited by Jacques Strap; 03-24-2023 at 09:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by digitaldeath View Post
    Hereís the dumbest person on tgr
    "What are you trying to say? I'm crazy? When I went to your ski schools, I went on your church trips, I went to your alpine race-training facilities? So how can you say I'm crazy?!"

  17. #292
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    Today the FDA approved NARCAN for OTC purchases! Not giving it away like COVID tests yet but this is a huge step in that direction..

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...20prescription.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  18. #293
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    Let's Talk About The Opioid Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Today the FDA approved NARCAN for OTC purchases! Not giving it away like COVID tests yet but this is a huge step in that direction..

    https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...20prescription.
    You guys needed a prescription to carry naloxone? They give that stuff away over the counter at the pharmacy here for several years now (ampules and needle, so needs a bit of knowledge to administer). My understanding itís completely synthetic with no proteins, so no risk as an allergen, and little to no risk to any other contraindications (other than the chance the user wakes up and clocks you cause you just killed their high).

  19. #294
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    It's the lay friendly delivery system that makes Narcan, like epipen, expensive. (Or so the company would like us to believe. ) Mayve we need to start teaching high schoolers how to draw up and give injections (when they're not studying critical race theory and being groomed by pedophile teachers). And the general public. Like CPR. When I went home from the hospital taking 80mg of oxycodone a day they were required to send me home with a narcan injector. Covered by insurance. I'd like to see the govt cover the cost.

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    It's the lay friendly delivery system that makes Narcan, like epipen, expensive. (Or so the company would like us to believe. ) Mayve we need to start teaching high schoolers how to draw up and give injections (when they're not studying critical race theory and being groomed by pedophile teachers). And the general public. Like CPR. When I went home from the hospital taking 80mg of oxycodone a day they were required to send me home with a narcan injector. Covered by insurance. I'd like to see the Sackler family cover the cost in perpetuity.
    Fify

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    When I went home from the hospital taking 80mg of oxycodone a day
    In your opinion, was that anywhere near necessary?

    Surely you could ride out the pain for a few days/weeks without needing a heroic dose of heroin? I mean that used to happen all the time, sure you may not be comfortable, but isn't it better than chasing the dragon?

    I know of an ex addict that refused pain medicine after an appendix removal. He was in rough shape for a few days, but he came out of it with his sobriety.

  22. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCMtnHound View Post
    You guys needed a prescription to carry naloxone? They give that stuff away over the counter at the pharmacy here for several years now (ampules and needle, so needs a bit of knowledge to administer). My understanding it’s completely synthetic with no proteins, so no risk as an allergen, and little to no risk to any other contraindications (other than the chance the user wakes up and clocks you cause you just killed their high).
    This concept was a big part of why I started this thread, to suggest this practice as a starting point to slow the bleeding while we work towards reducing the causes of said bleeding.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  23. #298
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    Then there was the time in the mid 90s that I snorted a bag of H because I had my wisdom teeth out that morning, it was a Friday night, they hurt like fuck, and no way was I getting the dentist to help me at 1am. I ran into someone I knew and whaddya know, he wasn't clean anymore and he had the relief I needed. My punishment was that I got dry socket a few days later, which was worse. I didn't OD, which was nice. Definitely wasn't a good idea then and a horribly bad idea now.

  24. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    This concept was a big part of why I started this thread, to suggest this practice as a starting point to slow the bleeding while we work towards reducing the causes of said bleeding.
    If by bleeding, you mean sucking chest wound, then ya, let's have at it

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Mayve we need to start teaching high schoolers how to draw up and give injections (when they're not studying critical race theory and being groomed by pedophile teachers). And the general public. Like CPR.
    That ain't happening in the schools in my mullet/flatbed/diesel rancher town At least not yet........./thread drift

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