Minimum & Maximum Boot Sole Lengths

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

It's worth mentioning that several others have reported otherwise, which is why I have not changed the template. I myself and people that I personally know have mounted Vipecs with my template. I cannot verify where the discrepancy originates from. As always, when mounting any binding with templates from the internet: please proceed with caution - or with confidence and live with the consequences

So....

I just measured the hole spacing using a digital micrometer but had to eyeball the center of the holes. Did 3 different measurements.

For the toes, the front to back spacing came out to 65.7, 65.8, 65.7. Thom's template says 65.75, Knut's says 66.

For the heels, the front to back spacing was 60 on all 3 measurements. Thom's template says 60.5, Knut's says 60.

My conclusion: we still don't have 1 template that is correct. I will use Thom's toe template and Knut's heel template for a future install. Not ready for Alpinord's "jig".

[Alpinord]

It's worth mentioning that several others have reported otherwise, which is why I have not changed the template. I myself and people that I personally know have mounted Vipecs with my template. I cannot verify where the discrepancy originates from. As always, when mounting any binding with templates from the internet: please proceed with caution - or with confidence and live with the consequences

Not sure either...I do know that the holes were off by a significant enough margin that the bindings would not have gone on a ski (I tested on a piece of wood). Have you seen Thom's template? That one worked perfectly for me.

Here's a quick and dirty comparison between the two templates. They look like the same hole patterns. The BSL is a little different but sounds fine within the adjustment range of the binding, correct?



For the Warden 11 Demo, I printed the toe section without the BSLs because the info I have so far is inconclusive.

This could be an approach on the Vipecs (and others) too. The hole pattern matches, but the BSL may be variable and the user could lay out the toe, drill and mount on a test piece. Put the boot down, mark BSC and then lay on the heel, mark front or back holes. Then take the layout holes and transfer the BSC to the tool and mark with a Sharpie or grease pencil.

Check out DIY Binding Templates for more info to make your own or simply figure out hole layouts relative to BSCs.

[Alpinord]

So....

I just measured the hole spacing using a digital micrometer but had to eyeball the center of the holes. Did 3 different measurements.

For the toes, the front to back spacing came out to 65.7, 65.8, 65.7. Thom's template says 65.75, Knut's says 66.

For the heels, the front to back spacing was 60 on all 3 measurements. Thom's template says 60.5, Knut's says 60.

My conclusion: we still don't have 1 template that is correct. I will use Thom's toe template and Knut's heel template for a future install. Not ready for Alpinord's "jig".

I was going to ask for someone to measure a binding. Thanks. Do you really think a quarter to a half of a millimeter is worth sweating? A wobble with a drill bit could be that much, plus inserts in their holes can be 'moved/realigned' with the bindings attached. Alpine screws can move even more. On top of that, you'd think the engineers would have designed their binding mounts to the nearest full or half mm, not to 1/10th mm, eh?

So....

I just measured the hole spacing using a digital micrometer but had to eyeball the center of the holes. Did 3 different measurements.

Pro Tip: measure to the same side of the actual binding holes instead of trying to guess the center.

IE:

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Gotcha. Good tip on measuring to the same sides of holes.

All I know is that the toes would not work with the 0.25mm difference in the toes, front to back. I use a drill press and center punch so very little chance of the bit wandering, especially in wood.

[Alpinord]

Can you measure the diagonals?


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[MyNameIsAugustWest]

77.6mm on the toes
65.8mm on the heel tracks

[Alpinord]

Thanks. Something's not adding up. Are the 44mm & 40mm dimensions correct? Is there something about the Vipec holes (smaller diameter?) that do not allow for movement the same as other bindings?

[Shorty_J]

I almost threw in the towel when I read that! My head is spinning and I'm losing my mind so bad I ordered another 3d Printer.

So...this is what I have teed up for the STH2/Warden group & I guess Armada line up. I'll need help correlating the Armadas to these.

So far, I have a template for the Warden 11 Demo, but need some help there, too. Shorty J? It looks like the heel layout matches the Warden 11, but not the toes. I'm uncertain on the BSL basis for this template.

Sorry for the delay but I do have a PDF file of the warden 11 demo. I don't remember for sure where I got it but I'm pretty sure I did use it to mount a set of bindings to skis I don't have anymore and it worked.

Where should I send you the file?

[Shorty_J]

Or maybe a couple of screen captures are OK?

Please note that I don't have a set of bindings on hand to verify these numbers, but like I said, I'm pretty sure I've used it before without issues.

[Alpinord]

Thanks. That's the same template from gregorys in the post above. I made the following from it using the Warden 11 heel with the same hole layout. The main floater is what was the basis for the BSL location? Are the heels located the same as the Warden 11s?

[Shorty_J]

^^^ ah... sorry... I must have missed that it's already been posted.

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[Duffman]

Thanks. That's the same template from gregorys in the post above. I made the following from it using the Warden 11 heel with the same hole layout. The main floater is what was the basis for the BSL location? Are the heels located the same as the Warden 11s?

Hey Terry, I have a few pairs of warden 13, 11, and 13 demos in a box unmounted right now if you need me to check hole spacing for you I don't have a Warden 11 Demo on hand though, but there is a verified paper template floating around here on TT, I've downloaded it before so let me see if I can find it.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

[Alpinord]

Hey Terry, I have a few pairs of warden 13, 11, and 13 demos in a box unmounted right now if you need me to check hole spacing for you I don't have a Warden 11 Demo on hand though, but there is a verified paper template floating around here on TT, I've downloaded it before so let me see if I can find it.

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Kewl. 'It might help & couldn't hurt'!. I added diagonals and would start there for measuring. Thanks & Happy Thanksgiving!

Do you or anyone also have Tyrolia Attacks and can check those dimensions?

[Duffman]

Lost my caliper so couldn't measure these for you, will do so later tonight. I have a Warden 11, 13 and 13 Demo unmounted at the moment that I'll check. My AAtack 14 is mounted so cant help there. I saw on the site you now have the W11 Demo, and thoughts on adding the W13 Demo?

[Alpinord]

Lost my caliper so couldn't measure these for you, will do so later tonight. I have a Warden 11, 13 and 13 Demo unmounted at the moment that I'll check. My AAtack 14 is mounted so cant help there. I saw on the site you now have the W11 Demo, and thoughts on adding the W13 Demo?

I could easily if I had something to confirm the Warden 13 demo layout vs the Warden 13.

Did you see the DIY template post and download? Could you trace the holes of the 13 vs 13 demo?


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[Duffman]

I could easily if I had something to confirm the Warden 13 demo layout vs the Warden 13.

Did you see the DIY template post and download? Could you trace the holes of the 13 vs 13 demo?


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Yeah , I have the paper template for the W13 Demo also so I'll compare to both

[PNWcement]

@alpinord
Something to consider for the demo versions of these tools is a fixed bsl and make the plastic jig one piece? When I looked into mounting warden or marker demos in the past it calls for fixed bsl to mount the plates. So consider making a demo template that is one piece with a fixe bsl vs your two part system on these to allow a user to move for each mounts boot sole length…. Make sense? I would definitely be into one of these for warden demos - either way you make them…


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[Alpinord]

Good points on the demos. Due to plater sizes, I cannot physically print a single layout tool that includes both toe & heels. Much like the 8 1/2" x 11" templates that need to be sliced. If I had a definite fixed overall length, I could set up the the two pieces to lock together vs being able to move the binding footprint.

Edit: a nice benefit of separate pieces are for partial mounts or adjustments. On one pair of skis, I needed to move the heels and toes for the other pair.

[PNWcement]

Good points on the demos. Due to plater sizes, I cannot physically print a single layout tool that includes both toe & heels. Much like the 8 1/2" x 11" templates that need to be sliced. If I had a definite fixed overall length, I could set up the the two pieces to lock together vs being able to move the binding footprint.

Edit: a nice benefit of separate pieces are for partial mounts or adjustments. On one pair of skis, I needed to move the heels and toes for the other pair.

Makes perfect sense - again happy to support and would buy the warden demo template in 1 or 2 piece versions…..




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[MyNameIsAugustWest]

So....

Circling back on the Vipec question. I mounted a pair of Vipecs on a pair of Praxis BCs over the weekend. Decided to try Knut's template again. The toe is spot on. I use pin line and heel edge to set BSL anyway so having/not having BSL scale is irrelevant to me. The heel holes are definitely too close together (front to back). Could you make it work? Probably. I just used my punch and moved it back (on the rear holes) 1 point width and the holes were dead center on the heel tracks.

I should have taken pictures but here's a description of how the heel holes looked:
With the heel tracks sitting on the template and placing the track's front holes dead center on the template hole markings, viewed from the top, there was a small ring of white all the way around the the holes. With it set that way, the template's hole markings for the rear holes were offset to the front of the heel track holes with the template's hole marking touching the heel track hole at the front edge. I would estimate the offset at 0.5mm. That agrees with Thom's findings also.

Hope that makes sense...

[Alpinord]

Makes perfect sense - again happy to support and would buy the warden demo template in 1 or 2 piece versions…..
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Warden 11 or 13 demos? If you or anyone has a set, could you provide rear toe to front heel hole dimension? Go ahead an order a Binding Layout Tool-Custom Request to get in the queue if the Warden 13 Demo and we can sort this out. I have the Warden 11 demo done.

Current Binding Layout Tools completed:

-Look/FKS Pivot
-G3 ION
-Salomon STH
-Salomon Warden 11
-Salomon Warden 11 Demo
-Salomon Warden 13
-Tyrolia & Tyrolia Attack
-Fritschi Vipec & Tecton (almost pending final verification)

[Alpinord]

So....

Circling back on the Vipec question. I mounted a pair of Vipecs on a pair of Praxis BCs over the weekend. Decided to try Knut's template again. The toe is spot on. I use pin line and heel edge to set BSL anyway so having/not having BSL scale is irrelevant to me. The heel holes are definitely too close together (front to back). Could you make it work? Probably. I just used my punch and moved it back (on the rear holes) 1 point width and the holes were dead center on the heel tracks.

I should have taken pictures but here's a description of how the heel holes looked:
With the heel tracks sitting on the template and placing the track's front holes dead center on the template hole markings, viewed from the top, there was a small ring of white all the way around the the holes. With it set that way, the template's hole markings for the rear holes were offset to the front of the heel track holes with the template's hole marking touching the heel track hole at the front edge. I would estimate the offset at 0.5mm. That agrees with Thom's findings also.

Hope that makes sense...

Thanks for this. I sent a Vipec/Tecton layout tool to a ski tech with a jig to test compare, too.



What I think you are saying is simply to move the rear holes:



Though, I want to get this layout tool spot on, as a tip, one reason I've always preferred using an awl for laying out for accurate drilling is that if you can 'move the mark'. If you notice you are off a skootch, you can push the awl deeper into the mark at an angle towards the shift then raise it vertically. Same is true for alpine screws into non-metal or carbon topsheets.

It's always good to put your bindings over your marks and visually confirm the alignment of the holes:

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

^ yes...moving the rear holes back 0.5mm may be picking nits but it also puts the holes dead center under the heel tracks.

[Alpinord]

^ yes...moving the rear holes back 0.5mm may be picking nits but it also puts the holes dead center under the heel tracks.

Isn’t all of this about nitpicking? Thanks. I’ll make the adjustment and print for prime time.


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[ASmileyFace]

Just want to chime in since I'm the tech that Terry sent the layout tool. I won't be able to really check this closely till tomorrow but I threw the tool under the jig today and it seemed to confirm the findings of MyNameisAugustWest. The heel holes are slightly off the jig.

I will actually drill some holes in a 2x4 to confirm tomorrow but my quick glance at it confirmed a very slight difference.