teaching/coaching skiing--squared up or countered?

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 03:36 PM

So, kind of wishing (for once) that there was still an Epicski out there, but curious to hear, especially from others who coach/instruct...squared up in turns or countered? What's the PSIA 'wisdom' these days? (Sorry, PSIA types, couldn't resist the scare quotes.) I know it used to be pretty firmly on the side of countering.

Personally, I regret the years I spent trying to get kids to ski in a countered position. So many reasons it doesn't make sense, IMO, but I believed in it...until I didn't (and at least I never insisted on always being fully countered and didn't deny the reality of good racers skiing squared up).

Is PSIA still really on the side of being countered all/most of the time? And what do most alpine racing programs say about it now? Very curious to hear the argument in favor of teaching people to be countered (I'm pretty firmly on the other side now, unless you're talking about bumps).

**GoldMember** · 11-03-2022, 06:02 PM

^^ No EpicSki, no problem... Here ya go...

https://www.skitalk.com/forums/ski-school.6/

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by GoldMember

^^ No EpicSki, no problem... Here ya go...

https://www.skitalk.com/forums/ski-school.6/

Forgot about that place. Epicski lives.

PB · 11-03-2022, 06:15 PM

No body here lurks there, it's too lurky.

**I've seen black diamonds!** · 11-03-2022, 08:14 PM

This is hilarious: https://www.skitalk.com/threads/why-...m-turns.28648/

**J. Barron DeJong** · 11-03-2022, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds!

This is hilarious: https://www.skitalk.com/threads/why-...m-turns.28648/

That’s why I posted about it in the ‘things that amuse you’ thread

**::: :::** · 11-03-2022, 09:38 PM

I do not know what squared up or countered even means

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by ::: :::

I do not know what squared up or countered even means

Ok, I guess I'm off to Epicski 2.0 with my question.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:16 PM

Sorry, didn't watch the vid before posting. Much more simple way to explain: countering (counter-rotating) means you keep your upper body (and sometimes hips, which is the problem) facing down the fall line, squared up means your upper body basically faces wherever your skis point. So, countered:

Attachment 432320

And squared up:

Attachment 432321

**EWG** · 11-03-2022, 10:18 PM

Quicker turns countered, slower turns square, no? Slalom/bumps vs downhill/GS.

**GoldMember** · 11-03-2022, 10:22 PM

Wow, this is like an EpicSki revival thread or something... Nostalgic...

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by EWG

Quicker turns countered, slower turns square, no? Slalom/bumps vs downhill/GS.

Yes, certainly makes more sense to counter in SL (to ski closed combinations you sort of have to), but even in SL you should be squared up in most turns, IMO. Pretty sure no one ever really tried to coach countering in DH/SG, but plenty of coaches still tell kids to counter in GS.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by GoldMember

Wow, this is like an EpicSki revival thread or something... Nostalgic...

Yeah, you're right. My bad. I'll post on that other site.

**EWG** · 11-03-2022, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Yeah, you're right. My bad. I'll post on that other site.

No no. Stay right here. These threads tend to become highly entertaining.

What’s your opinion on pole straps?

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:37 PM

Yeah, I see what you're doing. I'm willing to play along but am almost sure there are several 'fight like teenage girls' about pole strap threads already. Can't I just say telemarkers are smelly hippies who shouldn't be allowed on ski lifts instead?

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:38 PM

And I challenge you to a ski off.

**GoldMember** · 11-03-2022, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Yeah, you're right. My bad. I'll post on that other site.

Nah, EWG's right. This thread has solid potential.

**Dexter Rutecki** · 11-03-2022, 10:55 PM

Fully appreciate that, but really thought things might go the other way. Not sure why I thought that, but I did.

**rod9301** · 11-03-2022, 11:16 PM

Actually countered means hips and upper body having the outside ski, do at the end of the turn it's facing downhill.

It allows more angulation.

All racers do this, gs or slalom.

And you want to hold the counter part the edge change, otherwise the skis will slip on ice in the transition.

You're welcome

And no, psia doesn't advocate holding the counter thru the edge change

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**Danno** · 11-03-2022, 11:22 PM

I don't know shit, but I was always taught and always try to keep my upper body still, facing down the fall line. But I haven't had a lesson since I was 8, I just talked to and watched and followed the good skiers that I know.

**GoldMember** · 11-03-2022, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

I don't know shit, but I was always taught and always try to keep my upper body still, facing down the fall line. But I haven't had a lesson since I was 8, I just talked to and watched and followed the good skiers that I know.

Same here. Also taught/coached that way but haven't done either in a very long time.

Upper body still, facing down the fall line. All action occurs from the waist down but I was freestyle, not racing so no idea what race coaches teach.

**Mike Pow** · 11-04-2022, 02:49 AM

Squared

I'm CSIA and PSIA certified

My go to phrases

Keep your knees over your skis
(Stops the A Frame and dropping the downhill knee in to the turn)

90 degrees to the skis
(to stay square through the completion of the turn)

**anotherVTskibum** · 11-04-2022, 03:22 AM

Squared. Countering these days usually means someone is dropping their hip into the turn and parking on the ski. Among other issues, you can't effectively control the turn shape from that position.

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**MyNameIsAugustWest** · 11-04-2022, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Dexter Rutecki

Ok, I guess I'm off to Epicski 2.0 with my question.

I'm going to regret posting this but that's never stopped me before....

It's actually EpicSki 3.0

EpicSki => PugSki => SkiTalk

I buy a few things there but their prices tend to be super-inflated. Phil is actually a good guy but they have really sucked all of the joy out of skiing.

**telefreewasatch** · 11-04-2022, 06:24 AM

Wasn't gonna post but since EWG did...
Squared.
Hips gotta face the direction of travel or one cannot effectively take the energy from the old turn and project it into the new one.
Countering has been out even before harnessing the energy of a flexed ski was not a thing.
May as well have your feet together if you counter; sure is pretty.
While one is at it, may as well raise your downhill hand to head height!
Look at Stein, eh?