Pivot vs SPX

[Shorty_J]

The turntable assembly has a spring that handles that same function. The whole dildo, arms, and rotating portion of the turntable all move.

Thanks.

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[burrito]

Wait.... Maybe this is a dumb question but...

Isn't the elasticity in the pivot vertical only in origin? The heel isn't on a track so all you're really doing is moving the heel to the point where the pivot mechanism behaves like it should... Vertically. There are no springs in the arms, right... Just the heel itself? Isn't this actually vertical pressure not forward pressure?

But on the SPX (and almost every other binding) I move the heel on a track to set forward pressure. So there should be play forward and back within that track, and vertical elastic travel in the heel.

Wouldn't the SPX allow more natural flex because it can move back out of the way of your boot when the ski flexes?

I'm not disregarding the personal experiences of those who have posted above but this confuses me.

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Yes and no. As Shorty_J pointed out the Pivots do have a forward pressure spring that moves the entire heel assembly, but it’s nowhere near as powerful as that of most modern bindings (hence the creation of the more traditionally track mounted PX/SPX series.) Vertical elasticity in the Pivot heel might be better than others (I’ve never bothered to compare their numbers directly), but there are plenty of people that believe the rotating heel of the Pivot does not make them any safer, more reliable, etc.

30-ish years of anecdotal evidence, though, seems to at least partially refute that.

I think the biggest thing to remember when looking at the Pivot vs any other binding is that no one, even Pivot evangelists, claims it’s the perfect binding. They’re heavy, finicky, not as adjustable as a standard track-based heel, their forward pressure sucks…but they don’t care. They are willing to accept those faults for the Pivot’s advantages, real or perceived. If you don’t care about or believe in the lore of the Pivot, you’ll be perfectly happy in another setup. Alpine bindings as a whole are pretty damn good these days.*

*Though personally, because of my experience exploding so many PX bindings back in the day, I would be really cautious of the SPX. YMMV.

[SirVicSmasher]

Yes and no. As Shorty_J pointed out the Pivots do have a forward pressure spring that moves the entire heel assembly, but it’s nowhere near as powerful as that of most modern bindings (hence the creation of the more traditionally track mounted PX/SPX series.) Vertical elasticity in the Pivot heel might be better than others (I’ve never bothered to compare their numbers directly), but there are plenty of people that believe the rotating heel of the Pivot does not make them any safer, more reliable, etc.

30-ish years of anecdotal evidence, though, seems to at least partially refute that.

I think the biggest thing to remember when looking at the Pivot vs any other binding is that no one, even Pivot evangelists, claims it’s the perfect binding. They’re heavy, finicky, not as adjustable as a standard track-based heel, their forward pressure sucks…but they don’t care. They are willing to accept those faults for the Pivot’s advantages, real or perceived. If you don’t care about or believe in the lore of the Pivot, you’ll be perfectly happy in another setup. Alpine bindings as a whole are pretty damn good these days.*

*Though personally, because of my experience exploding so many PX bindings back in the day, I would be really cautious of the SPX. YMMV.

It's the perfect binding

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[Shorty_J]

Ok... you guys convinced me.

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[SnakeMagnet]

It's the perfect binding

The perfect binding is a STH toe and Pivot heel.

But if you try to make it happen yer gonna die.

[gregorys]

The "perfect" binding is whatever's mounted on the pair of skis I really want to ski today.

And +1 this

Alpine bindings as a whole are pretty damn good these days.

[Hood26]

Maybe I got nothing valuable to add. However, I have four pairs of skis. Two have SPXs and two have Pivots. Both set with the same DIN. I like that when I kick out of SPXs I don’t have to check the heel the next time I step in. I like the way the Pivots ski. Both remove my skis predictably and when they should.

Am I dumb for also thinking my SPX are better with my skinnier skis with metal and the Pivots are better with my mid fats and powder skis?

[Flexon Phil]

I talk about the SPX Rockerace in this video, along with some other sleeper bindings, many aren't applicable to this crowd so just fast forward to 3:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYWgjLXO1tE

While yes, Look suggests the RR only be used on a R22 plate, we are pushing to change that limitation as we did when we pushed to bring the Pivot 15 back.

Another simple "why might the RR better than a Pivot?" What are the racers using on their skis, Rockerace or Pivot? That to me gives the RR quite a bit of cred. Look hasn't used a Pivot heel on top level race skis in about 20 years.

[Shorty_J]

^^^ intriguing.

Does the rockerrace use brakes that are compatible with other brakes in the look series so I'm not limited to 80mm?

Any idea why look says you should use the binding plate with these?

Any idea what the delta/stack height is without the plates?

Do they use the same jig as a pivot if they have the smaller mount platform in the heel?

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[Flexon Phil]

^^^ intriguing.

Does the rockerrace use brakes that are compatible with other brakes in the look series so I'm not limited to 80mm?

Any idea why look says you should use the binding plate with these?

Any idea what the delta/stack height is without the plates?

Do they use the same jig as a pivot if they have the smaller mount platform in the heel?

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The Race (worm heel) brake works with the Rockerace.

No idea why just the race plate.

Delta/ramp is the same as the regualr SPX

Different mount pattern than the Pivot, why? I have no idea why.

[Shorty_J]

^^^ I'm trying to figure out if I could mount them myself with a pivot paper template... I.e are the short mount footprint of the rockerace heels the same as the pivot.

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[Shorty_J]

Well they are mounted.

But holy shit I understand what is meant by "finicky" forward pressure.

I spent well over an hour after I mounted them up trying to get the forward pressure set up. I guess I didn't really understand the binding and had to spend a lot of time fiddling and staring and changing... repeat.

I THINK they are set up good now... I probably won't die?

Incidentally... I thought the common wisdom was that if you use the jig/template as is you will likely end up near the forward end of the adjustment range to get proper forward pressure, but I ended up right near the middle of the range. Which surprised me.

I see the appeal of the rockerace after that, and the elastic travel numbers are pretty much the same.

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[gaijin]

The perfect binding is a STH toe and Pivot heel.

But if you try to make it happen yer gonna die.

Has anyone ever done this? I’ve done zero research.

[SnakeMagnet]

Has anyone ever done this? I’ve done zero research.

Someone here claimed they would try, haven't heard from them since..so..

[SoVT Joey]

Well they are mounted.

But holy shit I understand what is meant by "finicky" forward pressure.

I spent well over an hour after I mounted them up trying to get the forward pressure set up. I guess I didn't really understand the binding and had to spend a lot of time fiddling and staring and changing... repeat.

I THINK they are set up good now... I probably won't die?

Incidentally... I thought the common wisdom was that if you use the jig/template as is you will likely end up near the forward end of the adjustment range to get proper forward pressure, but I ended up right near the middle of the range. Which surprised me.

I see the appeal of the rockerace after that, and the elastic travel numbers are pretty much the same.

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ya I don’t know why that is some times. I always move the jig 5mm tighter then bsl when mounting pivots. Manual said 10mm at one point. That seemed crazy so I always use 5mm and have no problem.

the forward pressure shouldn’t be that hard. Set FP with screws on dildo sides to close, click in, check indicator, if out side of pressure range, click out, reset indicator by turning pivot 90 degrees and back. Repeat process.

those are a sweet looking ride!!!

[Shorty_J]

^^^ thanks!

Ha... I'm embarrassed to admit I didn't even know there was a forward pressure indicator... I was going on memory from what I thought I recalled reading in a thread here years ago that you want to hear and feel a solid "thunk". And then I was visually trying to confirm that the heelpiece was engaging the boot heel totally flat.

I just checked this morning and all of my guessing and analyzing put me exactly at the indicator... happy accidents, or I kinda know what I'm doing?

I even had a while when I thought I fucked up the mount because the dildo was off to one side with my boot clicked in... and a moment when I thought the binding was broken when the white tab wasn't engaging the turntable and I had zero forward pressure on one of them... until I turned it way out to the side and then back.

Thanks for shcooling me on the indicator... I was still a little unsure of how I had them set up but I'm feeling confident now.

But these are definitely not intuitive compared to any other binding I have played with.

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[DougW]

Have been a big look/Rossi fan , had lots of pairs of P10/12/14 then on to PX and Pivots. No has mentioned the failure mode of pivots , the pressed metal tabs that the arms go into . Its annoying when they fail and not supper cheap to replace. Have had to replace twice on one pair of pivot 12s and the part is common on all pivots so even if 18 getting same part.

The pivots do take a lot less force to click in than the PXs. So thats a plus.

[The Tortoise]

There's a Pivot forward pressure thread somewhere and the consensus is that the indicators aren't super accurate.

I used them as a starting point then adjusted to where if I pulled up on the boot it wouldn't move.

[Flexon Phil]

^^^ I'm trying to figure out if I could mount them myself with a pivot paper template... I.e are the short mount footprint of the rockerace heels the same as the pivot.

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The Rockerace rear screws are the same as the front screws of the regular SPX, from there you can just match up the forward screws of the rockerace and drill them.

[1000-oaks]

^ Interesting, good to know. I have a few pair of Rockerace to mount (haven't measured them yet), and bought a used pair of SPX to compare the forward pressure mechanisms. Thought maybe the Rockerace heel isn't designed to accommodate much heel travel (ski flex), since it wouldn't move much if mounted on a race plate. Hopefully it's the same inside as the SPX.

[Flexon Phil]

^ Interesting, good to know. I have a few pair of Rockerace to mount (haven't measured them yet), and bought a used pair of SPX to compare the forward pressure mechanisms. Thought maybe the Rockerace heel isn't designed to accommodate much heel travel (ski flex), since it wouldn't move much if mounted on a race plate. Hopefully it's the same inside as the SPX.

Rockerace is a worm screw where the regular SPX is a tab adjustment. Since the Rockerace is designed to go on a plate that has multiple mount postions I am sure is doesn't have as much travel as the regular SPX but it will still have more than the Pivot.

[1000-oaks]

Yep, but what I want to see is how much the heel can move as the ski flexes, which is determined by the fwd pressure spring length & wind, and is different than the track adjustment. Rockerace could have a shorter spring, if it's truly designed for only race plate use.

[Shorty_J]

The Rockerace rear screws are the same as the front screws of the regular SPX, from there you can just match up the forward screws of the rockerace and drill them.

I'd love to see a picture of the front holes.

It makes me wonder if I could just drill any holes I want in the forward part of the spx heel and make my own "rockerace"... might have to shave a little plastic off part of the brakes to clear the screws?

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[Flexon Phil]

I'd love to see a picture of the front holes.

It makes me wonder if I could just drill any holes I want in the forward part of the spx heel and make my own "rockerace"... might have to shave a little plastic off part of the brakes to clear the screws?

I was actually going to add the two extra holes to me jig but honestly all you have to do is drill the back Rockerace/front SPX holes then drill out the forward Rockerace holes. Pretty straight forward to mount.

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Not that simple. I would not trust the regualr SPX base for that.

[Shorty_J]

So I found this on Evo... it suggests the brakes for axial2 are the same as the px race?

Can someone who has some rockerace bindings take some detailed pics of their brakes and post them here please?

I have a few pairs of axial2 that I can barely give away but if I can use the brakes in rockerace I'll buy a set and try that.

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