TAHOE 22/23 -THE YEAR OF THE (t)RAM

[Mokomahonah]

Good to know. I did know Palisades applied for the permits to run it again a month or two back, so it's about time the county gets around to approving that. Too bad it's not on weekdays also, oh well.

No complaints from me. I knew what I signed up for when I moved here. However, we live in one of the nicest places in one of the wealthiest states in the world. Im just saying I want to believe we can do better than we are.

Old Goat you are right. There is no political will, or strength to do jack shit about it at this point. Like I said we need bold solutions. I don't think we are getting that with 75yo corrupt Cindy. I bet she is in Morro Bay on the weekends, not dealing with the traffic anyway. Do the Dahle's care about the traffic here? Dunno, never heard any much as a whisper. Are any politicians talking about it? It sure seems to be a popular topic around town.

In other news - with slight overcast and winds blowing (the correct direction) today Headwall was skiing great. Best day of the week so far. Silky buttery windbuff on the face and hogsback. Moguls are getting filled in by windblown snow so that's nice. Groomers are ripping with cold winter snow. Sorry no pictures. With a reset over the weekend?

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[truckeelocal]

It might take a monumental sacrifice by the locals to solve the traffic issue. The solution(s) will take mega amounts of funding that even Placer can't imagine as they flow funds down the hill. The solution is to embarrass Placer supervisors, and State level politicians, into action.

What's the sacrificial solution ? Hold the Olympics on N. Shore. Don't hate me.

[TahoeJ]

So just to be clear, we need political will to solve this and we can't complain about Alterra. Got it. Are we just going to pretend that Alterra doesn't donate $$$ to these politicians?

[lepistoir]

The people complaining about the traffic are the people who are part of the traffc.

This is just going to be one of those annoying things people keep saying even tho it adds nothing to the discourse and pisses everyone trying to actually do something off. It's like when we say we hate rain on snow and someone has to pipe up with "but we need the water"

STFU. No one actually asked you for a solution that only involves swallowing our dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs and pretending the only thing we have control over is our own personal guilt. We are complaining because we don't like it and want it to be different and it keeps coming up because the solutions are collective action and not personal responsibility or individual virtue

Collective action only happens after lots of people do a lot of bitching so the whining about traffic and its negative effects on quality of life will continue until things improve.

Is this the sign this dry spell has gone on long enough?

[lepistoir]

Ready for the roundabout Olympics TBH

[mmmm...pow!]

Y'all acting like traffic is a new thing since Alterra came to town. I think the only thing that has changed is everyone is trying to get to the ski area earlier, but still all at the same time. Solution seems pretty simple - go at a different time. I get in about 60-70 days at the resort per season, including many weekend days, and rarely deal with traffic.
And now we have these kinds of fucktard trying to ramp up tourism during shoulder seasons. https://www.nltra.org/in-the-news/th...-now-the-ntca/

[~mikey b]

it’s like y’all are trying to buy Taylor Swift tickets or something

I mean, someone got tickets, right? Just not you. But you jammed up the intertube.

[powdork]

Y'all acting like traffic is a new thing since Alterra came to town. I think the only thing that has changed is everyone is trying to get to the ski area earlier, but still all at the same time. Solution seems pretty simple - go at a different time. I get in about 60-70 days at the resort per season, including many weekend days, and rarely deal with traffic.
And now we have these kinds of fucktard trying to ramp up tourism during shoulder seasons. https://www.nltra.org/in-the-news/th...-now-the-ntca/

I don't know. When I read the stuff on their home page it seems like what they're saying is that instead of trying to promote tourism year round (as before) they now realize it's irresponsible to promote it except during the shoulder seasons.

[Truckee Joe]

The coldstream trailhead got hit by thieves and window breakers in the middle of the day. It's like we are Oakland around here.

"The beatings will continue until moral improves. "

[powdork]

^can we be Oakland and 'the traffic' at the same time?

[hercule33]

Traffic was never perfect but has gotten a lot worse. Parking lots have been filling up for decades but the problem has gotten worse. Lots of reason for it from all wheel drive SUVs becoming the family vehicle choice, to Silicon Valley exploding over the last 15 years, to the move to cheap season passes, to the lack of investment in infrastructure and last but not least COVID. Alterra acting like they have almost no responsibility to fix the problem while expanding the resort is the issue, IMO.

[Truckee Joe]

I really don't see what all the fuss about Traffic is all about. I rarely sit in it. I would never go to the valley on a Saturday in the middle of winter. I remember 30 years ago sitting in traffic. We had to leave our house in glenshire before 7 to make it to mighty mites on time. Traffic seems the same as back then.
Town traffic does seem worse, buts that's because of poor planing from our town, all the landscaping improvements taking away snow storage and the use of locals lanes is gone near the fwy. Town choosing not to widen the mouse hole was the real attack on skier traffic. Locals should know if they aren't going skiing then avoid going to the town during rush hour. What I don't want is my car being broken into when I am trying to avoid the crowds.


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[powdork]

So back then were thousands coming up here to ski only to not be able to since they couldn't get near the mountain? Did all open local businesses anywhere on Olympic Valley Road or Alpine Meadows Road have to have staff show up at 7 to protect their parking for the next 5 hours regarless of what time they open?

I would also point out that 30 years ago you were okay with going to the Valley on a Saturday, and now you won't consider it. That alone should say something.

edit-In the past 30 years Sacramento County has grown by 40%, Placer County has more than doubled, and Reno has almost doubled (probably has since I'm going with 2021 numbers)

[guermo]

Traffic seems the same as back then.

I normally like and agree with the things you say, but this... come on man.

[old goat]

So just to be clear, we need political will to solve this and we can't complain about Alterra. Got it. Are we just going to pretend that Alterra doesn't donate $$$ to these politicians?

This is just going to be one of those annoying things people keep saying even tho it adds nothing to the discourse and pisses everyone trying to actually do something off. It's like when we say we hate rain on snow and someone has to pipe up with "but we need the water"

STFU. No one actually asked you for a solution that only involves swallowing our dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs and pretending the only thing we have control over is our own personal guilt. We are complaining because we don't like it and want it to be different and it keeps coming up because the solutions are collective action and not personal responsibility or individual virtue

Collective action only happens after lots of people do a lot of bitching so the whining about traffic and its negative effects on quality of life will continue until things improve.



Is this the sign this dry spell has gone on long enough?

There is a common thread in my comments--we can bitch about Alterra or about all those other drivers clogging up "our roads" but it does no good. Alterra is not going to fix the problem. Those other drivers are not going to stop skiing on the weekends when that's the only time they can ski, People aren't going to stop buying passes. If there is a solution it has to come from government. People are not going to sympathize with the plight of skiers stuck in traffic in a resort area. Perhaps the public safety argument can gain some traction. Perhaps the environmental impact of all those engines running in cars going nowhere.

If someone actually wants to be part of the solution one place to start would be to donate to Sierra Watch, which has been pretty effective so far in stifling Alterra's plans. I would really like to see them or one of the other NGO's take on the traffic/lack of mass transit more directly. The only place I see any hope of improving the traffic situation is in the courts and lawsuits cost money.

Maybe Sierra Watch can negotiate a more significant mass transit deal with the County and Alterra in exchange for Alterra being able to do at least some building.

Our elected leaders have failed us (no surprise). A few years ago Moonshine Ink did an excellent piece--the kind they don't do any more--on all the developments in NT/Truckee that had an affordable housing requirement and on the tiny fraction of the required affordable housing that was actually built because the counties didn't enforce the requirements, or accepted in lieu fees which wound up going to something else besides housing. I seem to recall that the one project that did follow through was in Truckee, so maybe the town does a better job. If so, it shows the difference it makes when the governing body has to physically live with the consequences of their actions.

[mogul5480]

So Econ time, team:

In the past few market cycles, we have had an explosion of demand for outdoor recreation in Nor Cal. First it was the booming economy, then it was COVID, which convinced all the folks whose prior recreation habits included eating fancy meals and drinking fancy cocktails that they should spend more time outdoors (that last part kills me - all the parents who don't ski who suddenly put their kids on ski teams and bought cabins. Everyone wants information to be democratized until it actually happens).

Meanwhile, supply of outdoor recreation and the transportation infrastructure that services it has been fixed. No new roads, parking lots, trains, buses, or ski areas.

This demand-led pressure all accrues to the benefit of ski resort owners and land owners near ski resorts. Altera literally has zero incentive to solve any of it - quite the opposite! They can ration demand by raising prices on day-passes, beers, chicken nuggets, and hotel rooms, without having to invest a single dime in expanding their offering, nor pay higher fixed costs for maintaining amenities to handle higher throughput.

So the only solutions are:
1) Destroy Demand - price hikes will have that affect at some point, but you won't like it. It basically means they keep raising prices until some folks cry uncle. Who do you think has higher price elasticity of demand? Skiers on TGR or Google executives?

2) Increase Supply - The lowest hanging fruit by far here is to simply increase supply through efficiency gains around bottlenecks. The biggest bottleneck right now is transportation and lodging (they are linked). There is SO MUCH low hanging fruit that can be picked by simply improving public transportation and logistics. As has been mentioned here already, that is not an Alterra solution at all. It has to come from the guv'mint.

So that will push more people onto the slopes, and the bottleneck will move down the system. We are already seeing packed liftlines and slopeside dining. That creates incentive for Alterra and Vail to expand lift and dining capacity. It is then frankly in everyone's best interest to let them, because it will spread people out.

This is all good for Alterra and Vail. Lucky them. There is one way to increase supply that would be bad for Alterra and Vail. No one talks about it anywhere, especially in California, but it is sorely needed: We need to allow more development of ski resorts - preferrably accessible through different transportation corridors.

Examples of this may include:
- Developing a resort to the south of Silver Lake. This north-facing terrain is comparable to Kirkwood in peak elevation and is on the west side of Carson Spur, so would be much more easily accessible for both tourists and supply chain. Silver Lake itself has a ton of flat land that is completely undeveloped and offers great appeal as a Four Season Resort.
- Building across 50 from Sierra. It's South Facing and would melt out early, but you could then perhaps have the resort extend over the back of the ridge around Echo Summit and open all that North Facing Terrain
- Building up more infrastructure around Boreal, Donner, and Sugar Bowl - possibly connecting it all into a larger mega resort.

All of the above are on the west side of the pass, so would be easier to access in snowy weather. All are areas large enough to accommodate the amenities Bay Area folks currently can only get at PTOV and N*. I spent all of 5 mins researching this, so I'm sure there are more/better answers, but the bottom line is, if you want fewer crowds, you need to find more places to stick the crowds.

<endrant>

[bodywhomper]

Re: traffic and transit options, what affect and influence does Tahoe Transportation District have on all of this, both in the basin and between the basin and truckee?

[Truckee Joe]

I think squaws busiest days where back in the 90's. Like 18k per day on big weekends, if I remember correctly, back then they could park many more people. Now they are full when they hit 12k. So those extra 5k don't have any where to go. They crowd the roads and the towns.
I think around here we should have more busses and gondolas to move people around. I have travelled to lots of ski towns, and yes I think we have the worst public transportation of any ski town ever.
It's not because we are a poor county but poor leadership and that poor leadership is about to make tahoe even more exclusive and expensive. But as long as we are hostages to the other side of the hill. Cindy and her friends will pretend they care about local issues but the expansion projects will always be approved. We really need to re-draw county lines all over this state. That has happened before, it could happen again. Local leaders to deal with local issues.


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[davjr96]

We need to allow more development

You do know this is California, right?

(You are also not incorrect)

[bodywhomper]

There’s a small paperback book at my grocery store about historic ski area development in the Tahoe area. I’ve only skimmed the 80 and 50 corridor sections. It’s amazing how much more small development was in place prior to WW2. Flagpole peak ski hill? Ski hills at kingvale, rainbow, and cisco. Multiple spots at echo summit.

Where’s the kirkwood-like terrain/elevation south of silver lake?

If there truly was the public/private will power, a donner pass to donner summit mega resort could be established, including a train stop at soda springs. Linking soda springs, sugar bowl, royal gorge, auburn ski club lands, boreal, donner ski ranch and all hilly lands in between with significant conservation and preservation of the mountain meadows. Maybe 10 story hotels and condos and a water park in the summer.

I believe disney is divesting it’s final property ownership in mineral king.

[mogul5480]

So when you are driving West on 88 from Kirkwood and get to Silver Lake, you start climbing. Look out your driver side window and you'll see about 700 vert of north facing chutes (facing you) down to the lake, as well as about 1500 vert of west-facing low-angled terrain that climbs back into the wilderness towards Melissa Coray. I wouldn't say it's Kirkwood-like terrain, but the elevation is 7600 at the bottom and 9000 at the top, so it should get similar snowfall.

Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al...4891p5!5m1!1e4

It'd be a great place for a more family-friendly resort, mostly on that mellow, west-facing terrain, with a big resort village at the bottom near Plasse's resort. It would probably be more appropriate than Kirkwood for most folks who go there, as well as increasing the demand pool through the 88 corridor, which will have beneficial effects on the supply chain to Kirkwood. If successful, they could even connect through the valley that separates this zone from the back of Chair 4.

Btw your Sugar Bowl idea would be rad.

[Dark Energy]

Not coming here w/o some stoke, but I don't have the answer(s). This likely needs local leadership at the municipal and chamber of commerce level to increase transportation along with affordable housing.

There is grant money to address these issues. In the 2019-20 Budget Act, Governor Gavin Newsom allocated $250 million for planning activities that accelerate housing production to meet identified needs of communities. California's Housing and Community Development (HCD) established the Regional Early Action Planning Grant Program (REAP) in 2019. In 2021, HCD expanded the program focus to integrate climate goals with housing goals, allowing for a broader planning and implementation investments. REAP 2.0 seeks to accelerate infill housing development, reduce VMT, increase housing supply at all affordability levels, affirmatively further fair housing, and facilitate the implementation of adopted regional and local plans to achieve these goals. REAP 2.0 is administered by HCD in collaboration with the Governor’s Office of Planning and Research, the Strategic Growth Council, and the California Air Resources Board.

Of the $600 million in the REAP 2.0 program, $30 million is set aside for tribal entities and rural areas; $30 million for the Higher Impact Transformation (HIT) Allocation;and the remainder for administration. The HIT Allocation supports innovative or novel approaches that are scalable and further REAP 2.0’s goals and objectives including housing and equity goals, reduction of VMT, and implementation of the region’s Sustainable Communities Strategy.

I don't know if the issues with traffic on the Truckee to Tahoe City corridor, which seems related to parking and consumer demand, qualifies.

[El Chupacabra]

So when you are driving West on 88 from Kirkwood and get to Silver Lake, you start climbing. Look out your driver side window and you'll see about 700 vert of north facing chutes (facing you) down to the lake, as well as about 1500 vert of west-facing low-angled terrain that climbs back into the wilderness towards Melissa Coray. I wouldn't say it's Kirkwood-like terrain, but the elevation is 7600 at the bottom and 9000 at the top, so it should get similar snowfall.

Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al...4891p5!5m1!1e4

It'd be a great place for a more family-friendly resort, mostly on that mellow, west-facing terrain, with a big resort village at the bottom near Plasse's resort. It would probably be more appropriate than Kirkwood for most folks who go there, as well as increasing the demand pool through the 88 corridor, which will have beneficial effects on the supply chain to Kirkwood. If successful, they could even connect through the valley that separates this zone from the back of Chair 4.

Btw your Sugar Bowl idea would be rad.

Revive Iron Mountain?

[~mikey b]

we could probably support a backcountry only ski area like Bluebird in CO

I don’t know where exactly, but

[heckacali]

Yes!! A private ski area for Tahoe mags!!

Maybe something smallish with great storm access, maybe on the west shore...??