Canting

[Yukonrider]

Got new boots yesterday, and the fitter measured me for canting, says I need 5 degrees on my right foot and 3 degrees on my left foot. Then goes on to say they cannot cant my boots because they have a tech insert. I would probably have gone a different route with my boot selection if I'd have known this before we put all the work into them, but I digress.

The option now seems to be to put canting plates under my bindings. Has anyone done this before? What are the procedures? I assume I can buy the material online, and re-use my current holes easy enough.

Will I need longer screws? How much longer? This can't be too hard once I get the first pair figured out, and bringing 7 pair of skis to the shop seems cost prohibitive.

[turnfarmer]

Yes strips were the way it started. IIRC Tognar has the strips. Yes you will need longer screws. Best way to determine length is measure how much existing screw protrude below binding and get new screws to protrude through thick side of can’t strip to protrude same amount. This will be the biggest challenge as screws only come in set lengths and you may need to grind to proper length which is a pita. IIRC Slidewright has screw, maybe they have can’t strips Al’s, save on shipping.

3 and especially 5 degrees is a lot, Have you been riding a horse all your life or are your knees banging into each other?

[mntlion]

what TF said.....

and upper cuff alignment MIGHT help to accomidate for some of the correction as well.

but 3/5 is a LOT to change.


And you are using a good custome, corrected footbed already?

[Flexon Phil]

3* and 5* is significant, no pun intended, are you sure it wasn't .5*? I am curious how you were measured, in a boot with a tech or GW sole? If the latter two, did they get you to a level plane to do the assessment, but raising the heels. I know I do not to assessments with GW soles and replace them with DIN ones. But with 3 and 5, I would get a second opinion or at least a different method od assessment.

Turnfarmer is correct in where you can get strips. Note also that you will have specific left and right skis at that point.

[Yukonrider]

My knees bang into each other as I am quite knock kneed, I was not very surprised by the results.

Method: I am not a boot fitter so I'll just recount the experience. They used some tool to draw a dot in the center of my knee, then I stood in some apparatus with rounded bottom, and my boot fit in, had a little plastic thing that went up to knee height and had degrees marked on it. Then added progressively larger cant strips until I was at 0 (I assume). They also double checked with a plumb bob. This guy is supposed to be the best guy in SLC, so I do believe he knows whats going on, but if the collective says second opinion, then I will get one, just not sure where.

They did not change out the GW soles, or set a level plane (don't know what that is so maybe they did), but they did do a cuff alignment and a custom foot bed (not sure if corrective of cant or not?) and did all boot work before checking the cant . I DID notice that when I was standing with the cant strips installed my knees didn't collapse in and touch like they usually do, it was a really odd feeling.

[XXX-er]

i'm pretty knock knee/ collapsed arches and so i always depended on adjusting the cuff cants but when I got the Mercury & Vulcan there were no cuff cants but IME with a custom insoles or even the the Sole product everything straightens out,

YMMV as they say

[rod9301]

The cuff adjustment or the orthotics du nothing to fix a canting problem

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[Flexon Phil]

The cuff adjustment or the orthotics du nothing to fix a canting problem

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Yes they do. Setting the foot up with a proper foundation with a footbed then aligning the cuff should be done before canting.

[SoVT Joey]

The cuff adjustment or the orthotics du nothing to fix a canting problem

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the orthotics definitely do change your cant if the thickness is different from inside of foot to the outside of foot. And the cuff adjustment aligns the cuff to your shin bone and gives full ROM. Only other way to change cants is properly is grinding boot soles or boot board.

[schindlerpiste]

Don't forget that in addition to strips, you will need to shave the tips of the boot to compensate for the cant.

[Eluder]

I'm not telling you to not do it but a change that drastic could possibly give you an outcome you do not desire.

Do you really want a specific left and right ski on your touring skis?

[Yukonrider]

Yes they do. Setting the foot up with a proper foundation with a footbed then aligning the cuff should be done before canting.

This was done in my case

Don't forget that in addition to strips, you will need to shave the tips of the boot to compensate for the cant.

Explain this. If I simply mount the entire binding on a cant strip that shouldn't change anything right? Or are you talking about adding cant strips to the boot soles?

I'm not telling you to not do it but a change that drastic could possibly give you an outcome you do not desire.

Do you really want a specific left and right ski on your touring skis?

Honestly I don't want any of this, but I am very intrigued by the idea of skiing down cat tracks with flat bases. Currently I'm on both inside edges when skiing straight. I can only imagine the benefits starting from flat will have in outside edge engagement, and overall improvement to my skiing. Also hoping that my knees will stop knocking together in moguls.

Currently thinking that before going ham on the idea, I'll just mount up my groomer daily drivers with a cant strip and see how it goes. If I notice hudge improvements I can transition the rest of the fleet which will get paired down to a more reasonable 3 or 4 skis.

Really wish the shop would have told me they cannot cant grip walk soles before grinding and punch the new boots. I'd have just gotten a separate touring boot and saved all the effort of left and right ski BS for my touring skis.

[jummo]

Unfortunately, it appears a lot of this was done in the wrong sequence. A boot fitter who does alignment, should be able to recognize someone who is likely to need canting pretty early in the process and should select boots that are going to be compatible with that individuals needs.
Particularly, if the numbers are likely to be substantial. Yours as stated are extreme.
A properly made orthotic can absolutely change the need for, or the amount of canting, assuming that the problem is being caused by the foot and ankle.
An excessively pronated foot can cause the knees to track medially, and a supinated foot can cause knees to track laterally.
In these instances, a proper orthotic may resolve or reduce the need for canting. If the cause is tibial torsion (the most common thing we cant to correct) or a rotation at the hip, then canting the sole is appropriate.
But you need products that are compatible.
In my experience, it is always best to determine the cause of a problem and deal with it at its source, not just focus on the symptom.

jummo

[schindlerpiste]

A binding can be mounted 2 ways. Without canting, it is mounted either on a plate or directly on to the ski. In either case it is level. Canting can happen one of two wats. Either a angled piece of plastic can be placed between the boot and its toe and heel plates (alpine), or between the ski and the tech binding. In the alpine setting, the boot will not be level with the binding, and in the tech. setting the binding will not be level with the ski. I think that in both cases, the toe and heel parts of the boot must be shaved, so that it is level with the ski/binding

[XXX-er]

The cuff adjustment or the orthotics du nothing to fix a canting problem

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the way I see it I can put a cant under the binding, under the boot or under the foot in the boot

wherever it gets put the idea is to put a wedge on one side of my foot so when the boots are done up my feet are flat on the floor and i can see space between my knees and YES I agree cuff cant and foot bed are different

I always played with cuff Cant cuz it was a quick n dirty way to deal with alignment, it changed alignment of the entire leg but it didnt really cant the foot so the foot was still crooked in the boot, cuff Cant muddies the waters when it comes to alignment but it kind of worked for me

but IME an orthotic makes a big difference especaily in my AT boot that has no cuff cant, I pronate enough that i can't even set an edge in a boot without a cant

I can stand in my boots unbuckled on a foot bed and see that the leg is right in the middle between each side of the boot shell and the boot its flat

the 40$ Sole product works fine I don't need a 300$ custom altho I have those as well

[turnfarmer]

My knees bang into each other as I am quite knock kneed, I was not very surprised by the results..

Makes sense you need cants then.

But you may not like going fro 0* to 3* and 5* May be a lot to do at once. Or you may love it.

The good thing about going is that it is reversible or easily increased.

[turnfarmer]

the way I see it I can put a cant under the binding, under the boot or under the foot in the boot

In the boot and outside the boot(sole planing or under the binding) do different things.

[XXX-er]

explain it to the rest of the class then

[anotherVTskibum]

Your boots don't have swappable soles with the tech inserts, do they? It would conceivably be possible if that were the case to shim above the sole plate, changing its angle relative to the pins.

[rod9301]

Yes they do. Setting the foot up with a proper foundation with a footbed then aligning the cuff should be done before canting.

That's true, but once you do this, you cannot change the cant angle from inside the boot.


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[rod9301]

the way I see it I can put a cant under the binding, under the boot or under the foot in the boot


Sorry but no, it's not the same thing

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[skinipenem]

explain it to the rest of the class then

If you change the side to side alignment of the insole the ankle and foot bones change position with some but limited effect on center of knee mass alignment over the boot centerline.

Shimming the boot sole or, equivalently, under the binding change center of knee mass alignment in relation to boot center line. This can cause some pressuring of the malleoli against boot, but limited or no effect on ankle and foot bones (Eversion or inversion of foot) since they are locked in place by insole and shell of boot.

To OP:

3 and 5 degrees are massive changes. Discuss the following with your fitter: 1) Shim bindings on one pair of skiis to maybe 2 and 3 then play with adding temporary shims, like a piece of credit card, under your boot to see if you need more. Alternatively, increase the shims under your bindings until it feels bad and go by a hair.

3) Ask if your knees still rotate medially when flexed. This could be an issue with such great degree changes.

4) consider the pair of skiis to use as your testers. Too narrow and you might not notice the difference. I use about 98mm underfoot. Test on hardback where you are confident you will not fall.

5) It is unfortunate the fitter did not discuss two separate pairs of boots. One alpine and one tech touring. You may want to discuss some sort of deal to do that. Shimming that many skiis will take a lot of time. You might be able to get away without shimming or aligning the boot soles when touring since the snow will be soft.

6) I cannot comment about the consequences of the large alignment changes on striding/skinning; repetitive use knee injuries. You might want to reach out to a Nordic racing guru for that.

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[XXX-er]

If you change the side to side alignment of the insole the ankle and foot bones change position with some but limited effect on center of knee mass alignment over the boot centerline.

Shimming the boot sole or, equivalently, under the binding change center of knee mass alignment in relation to boot center line. This can cause some pressuring of the malleoli against boot, but limited or no effect on ankle and foot bones (Eversion or inversion of foot) since they are locked in place by insole and shell of boot.

I used a foot bed which cleared up my problem so I'm suggesting the use of a foot bed be it custom or off the rack might fix alignment issues before one starts canting or grinding

so are you suggesting skiers not use a foot bed ?

[jummo]

explain it to the rest of the class then

Things that are done inside the boot tend to occur primarily in the foot and ankle. Things that are done on the bottom of the boot tend to show up more at the hip. Canting the bottom of the boot sole will rotate the entire leg at the hip socket with minimal effect on the foot and ankle.
While it is true that you can post an orthotic medially and rotate the leg externally, as you begin to exceed the appropriate amount, you start to limit available range of motion in the foot and ankle, most importantly, certainly where skiing is concerned, dorsiflexion.
All of the motions of the lower extremity are triplanar in nature. When you create a movement or change in one plane, you also create change in the other two. Whether you meant to or not.
Additionally, the position of one set of joints will increase or decrease the range of motion in adjacent joints.
This is Foot and Ankle Mechanics 101.
C'mon you people are supposed to be Internet Authorities.

[jummo]

If you change the side to side alignment of the insole the ankle and foot bones change position with some but limited effect on center of knee mass alignment over the boot centerline.

Shimming the boot sole or, equivalently, under the binding change center of knee mass alignment in relation to boot center line. This can cause some pressuring of the malleoli against boot, but limited or no effect on ankle and foot bones (Eversion or inversion of foot) since they are locked in place by insole and shell of boot.

To OP:

3 and 5 degrees are massive changes. Discuss the following with your fitter: 1) Shim bindings on one pair of skiis to maybe 2 and 3 then play with adding temporary shims, like a piece of credit card, under your boot to see if you need more. Alternatively, increase the shims under your bindings until it feels bad and go by a hair.

3) Ask if your knees still rotate medially when flexed. This could be an issue with such great degree changes.

4) consider the pair of skiis to use as your testers. Too narrow and you might not notice the difference. I use about 98mm underfoot. Test on hardback where you are confident you will not fall.

5) It is unfortunate the fitter did not discuss two separate pairs of boots. One alpine and one tech touring. You may want to discuss some sort of deal to do that. Shimming that many skiis will take a lot of time. You might be able to get away without shimming or aligning the boot soles when touring since the snow will be soft.

6) I cannot comment about the consequences of the large alignment changes on striding/skinning; repetitive use knee injuries. You might want to reach out to a Nordic racing guru for that.

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Yes, that's more like it. Although, assuming a maggot has a credit card is a bit presumptuous.

jummo