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  1. #1
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    Metal skis - inherently demanding?

    As we all do, I read a lot of stuff about skis in the off season.

    Not naming names, but I see a bunch of mags discussing whether a ski has one or two sheets of metal, and if that makes a pair of skis more or less demanding. Male mags talking about women's skis, no less.

    I'm just going out on a limb here;

    Metal laminates do:
    -help make a ski heavier
    -help make a ski damper

    Metal laminates don't:
    -make a ski stiffer
    -make a ski inherently more demanding. If anything,added metal means more weight on snow, means less jarring, in turn means damper, in turn less demanding.

    Discuss.






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  2. #2
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    Aug 2021
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    Rustlers

    Kores

    Metal=hard Theory busted.

  3. #3
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    Don't think metal makes a ski more demanding, but it's not going to feel like an improvement for someone who doesn't ski fast enough to notice the extra ballast helping to smooth things out. It'll just feel dead at low speeds, just like a light ski is nervous and sketchy at high speeds.

  4. #4
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    Aug 2021
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    Whether a skier finds a certain ski (or its construction) demanding, depends on where a skier falls on the size/ability spectrum.
    I jump on a 165 Santa Ana 104, itís gonna demand my attention; my wife jumps on my BonafidesÖsame.

  5. #5
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    Metal skis - inherently demanding?

    My metal experience is early generation Explosives and Titans which I found to be stiff and demanding skis. Fun, yes but stiff, fast and directional. I have associated metal with these builds forever and havenít skied a more modern metal build to date. Havenít missed metal (mostly an ON3P non Ti Wren skier for 5+ seasons, DPS Pure3/Hybid prior 5+) but with Heritage Labs R99 AM 50/50s on the way maybe I will learn something new and have something more meaningful to contributeÖ..
    Uno mas

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by arild View Post
    As we all do, I read a lot of stuff about skis in the off season.

    Not naming names, but I see a bunch of mags discussing whether a ski has one or two sheets of metal, and if that makes a pair of skis more or less demanding. Male mags talking about women's skis, no less.

    I'm just going out on a limb here;

    Metal laminates do:
    -help make a ski heavier
    -help make a ski damper

    Metal laminates don't:
    -make a ski stiffer
    -make a ski inherently more demanding. If anything,added metal means more weight on snow, means less jarring, in turn means damper, in turn less demanding.

    Discuss.






    Sent fra min LE2123 via Tapatalk
    metal does make a ski stiffer. Thatís why they change the metal pattern in a lot of skis, like the SA and a some other. Metal does make a ski damper and more stable. The weight is a big part. And yes, any ski that is stiffer is inherently more demanding. Metal and Carbon are both used to stiffen a ski, metal dampens the ride and lessens vibration where as carbon is lacking.

    My fiancť at 120 pounds has zero chance of skiing a male WC GS ski even if it was in her proper length, she wouldnít be able to flex the ski to even start to think about a turn.

    Ski choice and build has more to do about ski style and size then anything. My dad is 30 pounds heavier, he absolutely rips, he will not exert the energy it takes to ski a true charger ski to its potential and heís ok with that, he skis something softer, but it still does everything he needs given his skiing style.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
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    Only other thing my brain wants me to add is that metal is but one potential ingredient, and is used by companies in so many different ways that itís no longer as simple as Ďthat ski is a beast cause it says Ti on the top sheetí. Inside two months now, almost there.

    Edit to add: This is what SnakeMagnet said, and in fewer syllables; you win.

  8. #8
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    Rustler is damp but easy to ski. Well done. But others are too demanding


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    I need to go to Utah.
    Utah?
    Yeah, Utah. It's wedged in between Wyoming and Nevada. You've seen pictures of it, right?

    So after 15 years we finally made it to Utah.....


    Thanks BCSAR and POWMOW Ski Patrol for rescues

    8, 17, 13, 18, 16, 18, 20, 19, 16, 24, 32, 35

    2021/2022 (13/15)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnakeMagnet View Post
    Rustlers

    Kores

    Metal=hard Theory busted.
    those are still more demanding then a ski with a full wood layup. And those are still way less demanding then skis with two sheets. So yes. They are easy to ski. Still more demanding and still leans to technique and ability.

  10. #10
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    There's still more to it, contrast something like a Kastle or Rossi piste ski to a Monster 88. Both have two sheets of metal. The Rossi tips will pull the ski into the turn just by tipping it on edge, while the Monster needs deliberate attention to the tips to initiate the turn. Both carve in a similar manner with similar radius, but the Monster needs more driver intent to change direction. More demanding, but also more stable.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvan View Post
    Whether a skier finds a certain ski (or its construction) demanding, depends on where a skier falls on the size/ability spectrum.
    Agree with others, the Size/Ability Spectrum Graph requires two more axes labelled Style (which covers mount), and Fitness. The output from the Ability/Size/Style/Fitness Graph is then entered into the Master Ski Database, which is organized by Demandingness, of course, which then outputs skis that are the appropriate amount of demanding for your, ahem, ASSF?
    Want a ski that is more demanding than the database suggests? One option is to add símore metal.
    This post brought to you by Blood Orange Gummies by TGOD.
    Iíll see myself out.

  12. #12
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    Mar 2008
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    a ski bud got always gets a real kick out of saying " Tit Anal " so there is that
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
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    452
    My only skis with metal aren't very hard to ski and aren't overly stiff. They're less demanding at speed than a lighter ski with less torsional rigidity - they're great for blasting through chop. If I want to ski fast and the snow is firm or cut up I'm less beat at the end of the day on these than a softer or lighter ski.

    Those same skis are less great when going slower - but not because of the metal. It's because they've got a long radius and a traditional mount point.

    My takeaway is that a well designed ski works great in the conditions it's designed for - metal is just a tool within the designer's arsenal to get the right end result. I don't think metal automatically means stiff or demanding.

  14. #14
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    Oct 2008
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    It depends.
    a positive attitude will not solve all of your problems, but it may annoy enough people to make it worth the effort

    Formerly Rludes025

  15. #15
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    Land of the Long Flat Vowel
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    Depends on the terrain.

    My 98 Monsters pretty much ski themselves, given a bit of room to move. Dead easy, and I have no problem bending then even with my paltry thighs/technique. My LP105s make not great snow much easier to ski than my Fischer Ranger 102s. I wouldn't take either of them in tight trees or awful moguls, though. (Edit: although they both go REALLY well in steep, narrow couloirs.)

    I remember Marshal O taking about how titanal can liven up planky feeling skis. Maybe he'll chime in.
    Last edited by Island Bay; 09-26-2022 at 02:22 AM.

  16. #16
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    Apr 2007
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    Iím not smart enough or experienced enough to explain why I do or donít want metal in whatever shape Iím eyeing/buying, but I know enough about how it feels to know what a ski will feel like with or without it. And thatís weight & and dampness. Stiffness isnít really a factor regarding metal, imo.

    Metal seems to quiet the edge-hold. Feels smoother. But I still prefer no metal in my pow skis. Just wood and glass.

    I guess I can theorize on paper why bonding sheets of metal to wood laminates could make it stiffer. But I think bonding fiberglass to wood would also result in similar stiffness. /shrug.

    I still havenít figured out why people like carbon, though.


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  17. #17
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    Mar 2005
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    No

    Metal skis are inherently demanding because in addition to the metal, the rest of the layup is super stiff most of the time. One layer of metal on a softer core is no big deal.
    Ymmv

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    291
    Titanal is just one ingredient in the skiís recipe, so itís presence alone doesnít guarantee a stiff, demanding ski. Metal is a fantastic material for increasing weight and dampening in a ski without hugely affecting flex patterns like adding heavier fibreglass, carbon sheets or thicker wood cores etc would.

    The typical 3-4mm Titanal sheets added to non race skiís construction will have a minimal effect on longitudinal stiffness but have a more profound increase in torsional rigidity along with a weight gain.

    Partial metal sheets can be added to tailor a skiís torsional rigidity and dampening along the ski. Use of full width metal in areas to maximize effect(usually underfoot), just over the edge area(keeps torsional rigidity pretty high but lighter than full width sheet) or just a narrow center metal strip minimizing torsional effect but still add dampening.

    Many hear the word ďmetalĒ in a ski and immediately think of race skis that were already fairly stiff and heavy before they added the 2 sheets of thicker 8mm Titanal sheets.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    Titanal is just one ingredient in the ski’s recipe, so it’s presence alone doesn’t guarantee a stiff, demanding ski. Metal is a fantastic material for increasing weight and dampening in a ski without hugely affecting flex patterns like adding heavier fibreglass, carbon sheets or thicker wood cores etc would.

    The typical 3-4mm Titanal sheets added to non race ski’s construction will have a minimal effect on longitudinal stiffness but have a more profound increase in torsional rigidity along with a weight gain.

    Partial metal sheets can be added to tailor a ski’s torsional rigidity and dampening along the ski. Use of full width metal in areas to maximize effect(usually underfoot), just over the edge area(keeps torsional rigidity pretty high but lighter than full width sheet) or just a narrow center metal strip minimizing torsional effect but still add dampening.

    Many hear the word “metal” in a ski and immediately think of race skis that were already fairly stiff and heavy before they added the 2 sheets of thicker 8mm Titanal sheets.
    Titanal in sheet form for recreational ski laminates is typically .2 to .4mm thick, not 3-4mm thick. If you had two identical layups and simply added a sheet or two of Titanal to one, it would of course be heavier and stiffer, but that's not how they design skis. Right or not, manufacturers usually assume the person looking for metal in their ski is a stronger and faster skier, so those skis tend to be designed to shine at higher average speeds and reward the skier who already knows how to turn.

  20. #20
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    Metal doesn't necessarily make a ski demanding.

    But demanding skis tend to have metal in them, because it suits the intended purpose of the ski.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Metal doesn't necessarily make a ski demanding.

    But demanding skis tend to have metal in them, because it suits the intended purpose of the ski.
    Exactly what I'm trying to say, but more succinctly worded!

  22. #22
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    Sep 2018
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    291
    Straight from Titanal spec page
    ďFor ski industry shells, the material is only produced in an ultra high- strength T6 temper and in thicknesses of .3mm-1.2mmĒ

    Familiar with ski design and was only commenting about ďadding a metal layer which adds weight and longitudinal stiffnessĒ as this thread was started by the OP seeing the Enforcer thread with myself pointing out the changes in the Santa Ana line in 21 as their were conflicting reviews of older vs the latest versions.

    Latest Santa Anaís were designed to be less demanding and more accessible for lighter skiers than the old Santa Ana or current Enforcer models. Nordica dropped down from 2 full metal sheets to 1 partial sheet in all 21 and newer Santa Ana models. Weight, longitudinal and torsional stiffness all decreased in the new versions when compared on Soothski.com.

    I donít find find any Enforcer ski demanding either but if I were a light weight, intermediate skier than my tune would be different. 🤷

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by noslow View Post
    “For ski industry shells, the material is only produced in an ultra high- strength T6 temper and in thicknesses of .3mm-1.2mm”
    Correct, there is a decimal in front of the "3." They use .2mm sometimes to add pullout strength to light touring skis.

  24. #24
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    Anybody that tried Volants knew metal skis weren't demanding. And those were full steel capped, not some titanal insert. Chubbs were heli-ski dentist cheater tools until McConkey embraced them.

  25. #25
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    I wouldn’t say the titinal makes the ski more demanding, but it usually makes the ski more torsionally stable at higher speeds. It usually provides a stiffer and more powerful suspension which can be good or bad depending on your size, ability and preferred style.

    Then again, the 194 devastator had no metal and is one of the most powerful skis I’ve been on. Weight matters, maybe as much as the materials.

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