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09-29-2022, 11:57 AM #51
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09-30-2022, 01:14 AM #52one-track mind
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Yes, I agree that Stockli is an anomaly and can achieve a more "quiet and smooth" ride, per weight & length, than other typical skis. A similar anomaly is the old Kniessel Flexon Tanker. Pretty light for how smoothly it rides. Plenty of metal, but not sure whether Tanker has lots of rubber or not.
More factors for smooth ride: It seems like a very rearward mount point and a very long camber section ahead of the boot might also boost that "quiet and smooth" ride per weight & length. ...But I think the newer Stockli designs have been moving the mount position a bit more forward nowadays, and rockering the tips too (i.e. a shorter cambered section in front of boot)---so the newer Stocklis might not be as smooth as the ancient pre-rocker ones, not sure.
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09-30-2022, 10:20 AM #53
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09-30-2022, 02:04 PM #54
Anybody that says metal skis are demanding never saw how popular the Volant Vertex Powerkarve was with the little old ladies.
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10-23-2022, 01:43 AM #55Registered User
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Stikki, Rasputin, and Caucasian Asian know what's up. There's a reason that Volant had success with metal. And we're not talking about an aluminum alloy; Volant was stainless steel. The dampness of the old Volants can't be matched with other materials. It's almost a shame that Atomic still holds Volant's patents, and it's definitely a shame that Atomic made it into a boutique brand for rich eastern Europeans. Even on powder days, the faster the Spatulas go, the less they care about other tracks (up to a point, when I want the Fat Bastards). At the end of the day on a "regular" resort day, my original McGs just destroy what's left of the stuff that's cut up.
Ski the steel, steal the thunder!
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10-23-2022, 10:05 AM #56
FWIW. If I understand the facts correctly, Kastle 105 BMX was one of the smoothest (most expensive) and highly sought after skis out there. A couple years ago they took the metal out and people freaked while complaining they had ruined an iconic ski. Kastle quickly put the metal back in the latest models.
I had a personal experience with Atomic Rituals. They had an unusual flex (stiffer tips and softer tails) and a variable sidecut, but serious metal. They were great skis. I busted an edge on the Rituals and got Atomic's "replacement" the Vantage, which had lost the metal and replaced it with "carbon tank mesh" to allegedly make them lighter and smoother. They certainly are lighter, but totally sucked in every aspect of performance, despite the lasted technology for metal replacement. This is only one case study but is indicative of my life long experience with skis lacking metal. My only exception is when it comes to powder skis.Gravity Junkie
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10-23-2022, 01:04 PM #57
Yeah, the Ritual was a nice ski, but you had to be careful not to load the tails too much coming out of a turn at speed. I had a pair of shop demos (actually they only gave us one, I had to trade another shop for the matching ski) with clear topsheets so you could see the wavy "fish-skeleton" Titanal insert they CNC'd in. They should do that with the Chetlers, that would really be something.
They did make Vantage skis with metal, the Vantage 97ti for instance, that were worthy rides, but you had to watch for them. Anything that said simply "Vantage" or "C" had no Titanal.
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11-02-2022, 05:44 PM #58Registered User
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11-02-2022, 11:15 PM #59Registered User
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11-16-2022, 09:11 AM #60
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11-16-2022, 12:01 PM #61
I'm far from having the physics and mathematical understanding of an engineer, but this discussion reminds me of the typical backcountry cost benefit analysis of weight. Andrew McLean often espoused "weight is great, but light is right."
It's long been a belief in any type of activity where you put in a lot of steps that you really have to be attentive to weight at your feet, so far away from your center of gravity. Working on snow and watching beginners I've often theorized that they would progress more quickly through the most elementary progressions in lighter equipment. Many simply do not have the strength to manipulate typical alpine gear very adeptly. I think that certainly plays into the discussion of what kind of demanding are we discussing? Physically, as in strength and endurance or coordination, and mentally as in experience and converting a line into execution of muscle memory, or attention and ability to quickly alter our decision from visual and physical feedback? What are our goals? 1 run as fast and as in control as possible, first chair to lunch and then cruisers with the family, charge until the new snow is crud, or charge all day? We would all have different ability and stamina and would have our own "sweet spot" of weight and turnability.
It also makes a ton of sense to me what Marshall is referring to that the torsional stiffness is raised by the planar surface of the sheets of metal while the linear axis in the same plane as the camber would not necessarily be effected as much. That, the longest axis of the ski, would mostly be controlled by the core material and the 3D profile edge to edge from tip to tail and would be apples and oranges as you certainly wouldn't use the same design and zero, one, or two sheets of metal. Thanks Marshall for using the Enforcer and the Dynastar LPR as the examples, two skis I own. 100% agree that the softer tail and lower turn radius on the Enforcers are integral to them being more user friendly.
I guess I'm squarely in the metal sheet camp, as I even prefer it in my touring skis. I just think that inevitably I often find a band of challenging wind slab or ice that I simply want the added control. I generally prefer traditional half camber unless I'm willing to go home or switch boards as soon as the conditions change. It's probably my favorite thing about gravity sports... you can add and take things away from a design, but generally it's a net sum game. My suggestion to the husbands and dads that are drilling in trying to help partners and children is to also take a hard look at boots. We are often very calculated about ski weight, but ultimately the ski, boot, and binding work as a system. It's uncanny how many times you look around at the folks struggling the most and they're clearly in gear that doesn't work well as a system. Boots too soft or too heavy, skis too short or with too low a turn radius, boots too big and not buckled down adequately... it would be tough for the most gifted skier much less a rank beginner to enjoy skiing with some of these errors in equipment.
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11-18-2022, 12:20 AM #62
As I understand it, Titanal is basically aluminum. By itself a thin sheet of it is not stiff and not heavy. It stiffens and dampens a ski lengthwise and torsionally because it is very strong in tension--ie you can't stretch it. When a ski bends the outside of the bend gets longer and the inside gets shorter. When the Titanal is glued to the core that resistance to stretching means it's hard for the outside of the bend to get longer--that means the ski is stiffer. I wonder how many skis that wear out do so because the glue fails so the metal isn't doing anything (I'm thinking of a particular pair of red Mantras I had that got downright scary on anything firm after a few seasons.) I should have cut them open to see if there was internal delam. Instead I gave them to my kid.
As far as demanding--as others have said, that depends. Put a racer on a steep hard course on a pair of beginner skis and I bet they'd find them very demanding. But in general "demanding" is a term aimed at beginner--intermediate skiers and means hard to turn at slow speed, and metal makes a ski more demading in that sense because it requires more force to bend, and at slow speed there isn't enough angular momentum to bend the ski unless the skier is fat.
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11-18-2022, 02:19 PM #63
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11-18-2022, 03:52 PM #64
Neither titanium or vanadium in titanal
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11-18-2022, 04:27 PM #65
I prefer to think of it as Tit Anal
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11-18-2022, 08:38 PM #66
There’s a very small amount of titanium in Titanal:
- Use of an alloy containing (indicated in weight percentage):
up to 0.15 % silicon, up to 0.3 % iron, 1.4 to 2.0 % copper, up to 0.10 % manganese, 2.5 to 3.5 % magnesium, up to 0.1 % chromium, 6.8 to 7.9 % zinc, 0.05 to 0.1 % titanium, 0.05 to 0.18 % zircon, the rest consisting of aluminium and impurities, for sporting devices under vibratory stress.
https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0233858B1/en
- Use of an alloy containing (indicated in weight percentage):
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11-18-2022, 11:31 PM #67
0.05--0.1% Titanium? I believe that triggers an automatic recount.
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11-18-2022, 11:46 PM #68
Yeah, I get that it’s not a lot, and I’m not a materials expert so can’t tell you what the specific benefit of having Ti in there is, but some alloys just have very small amounts of various elements, including Ti.
AL-7068 for example:
My only point is that if someone’s thinking they only put a tiny bit of Ti in there just so they could call it Titanal, that’s probably not the case.
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11-19-2022, 03:45 PM #69
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11-19-2022, 05:16 PM #70
Metal skis - inherently demanding?
I stand corrected
But VAS on old Rossi 4S still stands for vaginal attack system?
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11-19-2022, 05:42 PM #71
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11-21-2022, 11:46 PM #72
Ha, me too big time. Was looking for the same ski as well, got her a pair of Faction Dictator 2.0x (the rad pink ones from last year). She loves them so far. Two sheets of metal but a medium even flex throughout. Really helps her keep stable and confident at speed, something she often struggles with.
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11-22-2022, 12:05 PM #73
The first time I looked it up on the AMAG (Austria Metall AG, the only source of Titanal) site about 8 years ago they said it had a tiny amount of Titanium, the current literature says no:
"The chemical composition of Titanal® in weight percent breaks down to approximately 88.5% aluminum, 1.7% copper, 2.5% magnesium, 7% zinc, and 0.1% zirconium."
Emailing AMAG customer care to confirm . . .
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11-22-2022, 12:13 PM #74
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11-22-2022, 12:32 PM #75
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