Patagonia/Torres Del Paine?

[zion zig zag]

I searched and didn't turn anything up. Thinking of booking airfare to Santiago for next spring and was wondering if any maggots had travel experience to help plan. The only real agenda is hiking 4-5 days in Torres Del Paine, but I'd also like to make my way up to El Chalten and see Cerro Torre and Fitz Roy if I'm going all that way. General questions would be:
-Is Punta Arenas worth a day or two? Fly into Puerto Natales instead (flights only happen a day or two a week)?
-Best way to travel between Punta Arenas/Torres/El Chalten? Realistic times for this?
-Anyone rented a car and driven? Pretty cheap and seems to lend lots of flexibility. The bus is cheap, but there seems to be a lot of back tracking, stops, changing busses etc. to make it work.
-anything else you have to add.

[ötzi]

I don't really know the answers to your questions but we're going in December and I'll report back. The itinerary was put together by some people familiar with the region, I don't have it here where I am but I'll be home Friday and can post what they put together after that. We're stopping in Santiago one way and Buenos Aires going the other way, I do know that much. I also know we go to Punta Arenas and Ushuaia and are venturing out from there. Trip's about 2 weeks long. Ground travel links are part of it so I won't be able to answer the car/bus/ etc. questions.

[dunfree]

from a March-April trip a long time ago-
-nothing worth wasting your time on in p natales or p arenas, really. If urban things are what you want Santiago, Valparaiso, or BA had much much more to offer especially wrt to food
-if you want to see the peaks, weather will be a factor, I spent 3-4 days in el chalten and the only clear day was when I left. Several of the 4? Days in Torres del Paine were low clouds iirc.
-if you want to camp it might be the windiest place you have, or ever will camp. Pole snapping will the tent blow away.
-the buses were slow. In a car the roads could be quite poor, and services nonexistent for long stretches.
-outside of a few major destinations trail quality/etc dropped off real fast.
-the ferry from P Williams to P Arenas had really nice scenery, so did the Carreterra Austral

any or all of that may have been changed and if so it’s be cool to see how

[Meadow Skipper]

I’ve been thinking about a Patagonia trip, so though I don’t have any info…subscribed!

[rideit]

PM’d you.

[zion zig zag]

Otzi - I'd love to see/read anything you have. I don't know what I don't know so it'd be good to see agendas.
Dunfree - We're planning last week of March to first part of April. Supposedly fewer crowds, and the weather is always bad, so it seemed right. Planning on camping, I know the wind is legendary, and wind isn't my favorite anyway.

I think part of the reason that planning is tough is that everyone wants to sell packages only. Pick you up at the airport, hotel for the night, bus to here, this campsite, bus back to point a, etc. But I don't want to go back to point a, and I don't really like being on other peoples agenda and timelines. Consequently, trying to book campsites, or find out how much bus fare is from a to b is challenging.

[Terrapin Ben]

I made an extended trip to Patagonia in 2010/2011. MY itinerary was as follows:

- fly into Santiago and then bus to Pucon to check it out
- bust to Puerto Montt and hop on the Navimag to Puerto Natales
- a this point you could hop into Torres del Paine
- spent some time in Punta Arenas
- Took a bus to form PA to El Calafate, Argentina to see Parque Nacional Los Glaciers for a day and night
- continued the bus up Ruta 40 to spend two weeks in El Chalten
- continued up Ruta 40 to El Bolson for a few days
- Crossed back into Chile to spend some more time in Pucon
- Took the bus to Valparaiso and then finally Santiago to fly home

Good times in some HUGE country. Don't plan too strict a schedule as the weather does what it wants, and it's nice to actually be able to see all the countryside and mountains! My trip stretched over seven months.

[stalefish3169]

Stayed here in PN a few years back and really liked it.

https://www.noihotels.com/noi-indigo-patagonia

Stayed here too, and it was awesome! The pics from the deck are still my phone wall paper.

https://patagoniacamp.com/en/



Had some of the best scallops ever, here.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaura...es_Region.html

The short Mirador Cóndor hike in front of the Cuernos is not to be missed. Lots of bang for the buck.

https://www.alltrails.com/trail/chil...dor-condor?u=i

[Harry]

Join the maggot-led fly fishing trip with Underoos.

https://hugeflyfisherman.com/vista-patagonia-lodge/

[bennymac]

Punta Arenas has some interesting museum stuff on Shackleton if you're into that sort of thing.

Puerto Natales is nice enough place for prepping for your hiking trip but not much else. We stayed in that above mentioned Noi Indigo hotel - was nice. They let us store stuff there while we went backpacking.

Sorting out the camping permits for the park was confusing - when we did it you had to put together your itinerary - then try to get camping permits from multiple places/businesses to make it work - but if you didn't get one of the permits you wanted you then had to adjust everything. The gear store in PN would host a nightly "lecture" on the park which was helpful - they also sell decent food there and rent camping supplies if needed.

We hiked the "Q" route - which is the full circle but starting on a branch of trail in the southwest part of the circuit - which will make sense if you're looking at a map. It was hard to find a guidebook to get info on the route in advance but we found one - I can get you the name if you need.

It's not technical hiking - but the logistics of it all are a bit confusing and disorganised. And it's weird to be backpacking with hundreds of others and then finishing your day sitting outside a big hostel in the wilderness that is serving hot meals. The scenery was spectacular though - but I prefer backpacking without strangers around.

Hiking up the the towers for sunrise seems like the emperor's new clothes - painful to do and therefore everyone raves about how great it was because it's hard to admit it was not worth it. Better to hike up for sunset - you may just have the place to yourself. Sure the towers won't be glowing in orange sunlight but they are still beautiful to see during magic hour.

[BeardedClam]

skip traveling 1000s of miles to look at the patagonia logo. Hang out in Los rios, los lagos, pucon, san martin de los andes, bariloche and puerto montt. Great food, great people, buses into the mountains to hike if you want. hot springs.

Marginally better weather, and way more to do if the weather is bad. It's like Oregons volcano views, with Idaho amounts of hot springs, Japan level seafood(I mean variety, skip the salmon, go for bivalves/crustaceans), Washington size mountains, and infrastructure to get around without being the 'gringo-that-NEEEEDS-to-have-a-car'

[Dr. Crank]

Went to that area almost twenty years ago. Would love to go back. Got held up for a few days in Punta Arenas because my wife wanted to take the tour to an island with all the penguins, which was pretty fun but the tours don’t run every day. Otherwise we found there wasn’t all that much to do in that city.
Trying to remember our itinerary. I think we flew from Buenos Aires to Ushuaia. Really enjoyed that area and did some short hikes there. Then took the bus to Punta Arenas and onto Puerto Natales and then Torres del Paine. Hiked there.
We then bussed up to El Calafate and then El Chalten area. Did a backpacking trip out near Fitz Roy. After that we flew from El Calafate to Bariloche.
Overall it’s a stunning area with often challenging weather. We took busses everywhere. We had lots of time so weren’t in a rush but distances are reasonable in that pocket of Patagonia.

[BeardedClam]

Also the Argentine peso is in the shitter so it's dirt cheap right now

[truckeelocal]

If you're going all that way then the Perito Moreno Glacier is close to el Calafate and is worth a visit, the Glacier Museum and the Casino not so much. We took regular buses between Puerto Natales/el Calafate/el Chalten.

Don't use the sidewalks in el Chalten ... you'll look like a gaper.

[bennymac]

Went to that area almost twenty years ago. Would love to go back. Got held up for a few days in Punta Arenas because my wife wanted to take the tour to an island with all the penguins, which was pretty fun but the tours don’t run every day. Otherwise we found there wasn’t all that much to do in that city.
Trying to remember our itinerary. I think we flew from Buenos Aires to Ushuaia. Really enjoyed that area and did some short hikes there. Then took the bus to Punta Arenas and onto Puerto Natales and then Torres del Paine. Hiked there.
We then bussed up to El Calafate and then El Chalten area. Did a backpacking trip out near Fitz Roy. After that we flew from El Calafate to Bariloche.
Overall it’s a stunning area with often challenging weather. We took busses everywhere. We had lots of time so weren’t in a rush but distances are reasonable in that pocket of Patagonia.

Agree that Ushuaia was a cool place to visit. Some hiking in Tierre del Fuego park. Can fly there easily from Calafate - which is a not intolerable bus ride away from Puerto Natales.

[fool]

I searched and didn't turn anything up. Thinking of booking airfare to Santiago for next spring and was wondering if any maggots had travel experience to help plan. The only real agenda is hiking 4-5 days in Torres Del Paine, but I'd also like to make my way up to El Chalten and see Cerro Torre and Fitz Roy if I'm going all that way. General questions would be:
-Is Punta Arenas worth a day or two? Fly into Puerto Natales instead (flights only happen a day or two a week)?
-Best way to travel between Punta Arenas/Torres/El Chalten? Realistic times for this?
-Anyone rented a car and driven? Pretty cheap and seems to lend lots of flexibility. The bus is cheap, but there seems to be a lot of back tracking, stops, changing busses etc. to make it work.
-anything else you have to add.

Thoughts from a trip from 6 years ago:
-Are you going to do the O, W, or Q in Torres? Getting a permit there requires some advance planning, so look into that (luckily my buddy handled that part).
-I didn't make it to Punta Arenas. I think it's worth it if you want to see penguins, but I also think it's a long bus ride.
-I took buses most places and thought it was fine. Not as nice as a car but was fine.
-If you go to Puerto Natales - the end or beginning of a travel day is fine enough - swing by the Last Hope Distillery run by some awesome Aussies. I remember having a great time there after backpacking the O.
-If you do the O - and maybe Q - recommend sunrise at the top of the viewpoint when you see Glacier Grey. One of the most incredible views of my life (pics to follow).
-El Chalten is great to see Cerro Torre and Fitz Roy. If you're not climbing though I'm not sure there's more than a few days of light hiking around there (I could be wrong). Still worth it - it's an incredible view.
-You haven't mentioned it, but I loved Bariloche, and would have liked to spend 3-5 days there. Kind of similar to Lake Tahoe, but more dispersed, from my limited time there. Cerveza Patagonia was a really cool and beautiful brewery.
-I went to Mendoza and thought it was fine - and the wine was fun - but I probably wouldn't go again. If you love wine - Malbecs especially - it's worth a visit. I'm just not that into wine.

You'll have a great time and the steak is delicious. Also, Buenos Aires has beautiful women, in case you stop there.

[bennymac]

this is the guidebook we used for doing the Q circuit

the meal at the hostel on the backside of the route (Dickson) was great - more chill than the chaos at the other refugios

https://www.cicerone.co.uk/torres-del-paine-second

[zion zig zag]

Thanks everyone for the advice, lots of good info here. At this point we are planning to hike the W circuit, the shortest one, since there is so much we want to see other places. Getting permits and camping reservations is indeed a pain in the ass. Each site is owned by a concessionaire, and the sites we want are owned by separate concessionaires, so you have to book individually, and they open on different dates.

The bus thing still is a head scratcher and hard to find good info. I'm not a gringo that neeeeeds a car but, here's what I'm finding online for travel from Torres Del Paine to El Chalten: By bus take a 2.5 hour bus to Puerto Natales, transfer to El Calafate for another 4 hours, then transfer to El Chalten couple of hours? This takes two days because you can't make the TDP transfer in time to catch the bus to El Calafate. Total price for 2 for the three bus rides was around $130, one way. Or, I can save a day on both ends, cover all of my other travel and have the freedom to change agendas by renting a car for the entire time for about $500? Seems like a no brainer.

[bennymac]

Oh god the whole permit thing is a gong show - I spent a lot of time during the hike thinking about how someone needs to buy up all of the businesses and refugios and make it one system. As well a couple times during our circuit we had to hustle forward on the day's hike to get to a ranger station to then be able to request being added to the campsite list for some future site at some future date. So even during our hike we were managing logistics and having to potentially be flexible with plans (with any interruption of course causing downstream issues with our permits)

Yes I remember reading somewhere during our trip planning (this was 8 years ago) that it was rare/next to impossible to find a bus from Torres Del Paine direct to Calafate (the source implied that it sometimes was available but no idea how you'd figure that out). We left clothing and stuff back in PN anyway so we backtracked there for a night before catching the bus back to Calafate. I think the Chileans would rather visitors from Argentina not be able to easily go from Torres to Calafate without spending more time and money in country. At least PN has some good restaurants for post circuit meals.

If you change your plans the backside of the circuit really is beautiful and different and was way less crowded. But there is so much to see down there everywhere so you can't really lose - you just win in different ways.

[BeardedClam]

having a car rental down there as a gringo is very hard if you are planning on travelling between countries. Both countries think that people from the other country will rent a car, cross the border, damage property then ditch the car and flee back. There's extra insurance and maybe even need a notary or something of the sort for the insurance. It is required to enter into the other country and will be turned around at aduana. You leave one country before you enter the next, not like a lot of other places that exit/enter concurrently.

The bus system is part of the experience. Their websites are shit, which makes it hard to coordinate stateside, just know that it will work out when you're down there. There are only a couple carriers which go across the border, and fewer in the far south which should make it easier to find the ones that work. Viabariloche is a carrier that probably has some good service in that area, maybe andesmar as well. In general, bussing in chile is cheaper than argentina, with more service. Argentina has more direct routes in your area with ruta 40 being the mainline, and the fjordland ferry service on the chilean side(slower but better views)

[dunfree]

My past experience was rental car companies would take care of all of that for money. Both Chile and Argentina. At least the then major rental company’s would. Definitely cost extra and may have been single round trip, not multiple entry, but showed up at the airport and drove away. On a shorter trip saved time.

[zion zig zag]

My past experience was rental car companies would take care of all of that for money. Both Chile and Argentina. At least the then major rental company’s would. Definitely cost extra and may have been single round trip, not multiple entry, but showed up at the airport and drove away. On a shorter trip saved time.

Avis requires you inform them 10 days in advance that you want to cross the border. They then prepare all of the paperwork and insurance requirements for the crossing. This costs an extra $130 on top of the rental fee. I'm still leaning this way. Car for the entire trip, even parked while hiking in TDP, is maybe $300 more than taking buses. The plus side is the freedom to move and not having to back track and wait overnight for the next bus somewhere you don't really want to be. Private transfer between the TDP welcome center and El Calafate is $350pp!

That being said....travel times for that part of the world are all over the place. TDP Welcome Center to El Calafate is 169 miles. Google Maps shows that the trip by car takes 3:45 hours. Seems reasonable at a 45mph average. But you can look all over and see reports from people who will tell you that drive takes 8 hours. And others say 3. So who knows.

Iceman, is your trip coming up soon?

[bennymac]

No way that drive takes 8 hours. The bus from PN to Calafate was like 5 hours and that's including the border stop.

4 hours from the park in a car sounds right.

[zion zig zag]

No way that drive takes 8 hours. The bus from PN to Calafate was like 5 hours and that's including the border stop.

4 hours from the park in a car sounds right.

Thanks for the conformation on that.


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[MakersTeleMark]

I don't know anything but anecdotal multiple times over many years, but if you find a guy in an office, you can rent a studded vehicle for as long as you want with cash, even with a, oops expired U.S. license, no credit. You can even travel back and forth across the spine chasing pow, but I don't know. Cannot be done. Unpossible.

Now if you are going to bring fussy people or kids along, well, stick to AVIS.

Shit, just buy a panda for a grand and sell it after a month or so. Sometimes I wish I had kept that car and stayed down there. Many times actually.







BKLN in da houze!

Just go, and bring cash. I was there in 2000 when it shit the bed. No matter what people say about Mendoza, and I really like wine, I spent 3 weeks there really getting to know the place before I went south. It's like the .... old colorado springs of arg. But well, hard to explain. Wine of course. Lots of ag, cordoba students looking for front range.

Anyway, I'm getting lost. Get a car, and do it. There are literally thousands of 1st decents in farmers' backyards that are only 15km off the very beaten tracks.









I guess Melanzana should pay me for that taken almost 20 years ago? And more probably. Was a solid, if painfull bushwhack of a 1st decent that required all my cleaned up kitchen Spanish to be able to secure a parking spot to go do "scientific snow study above casa" to leave it there for 8 houras.

Reminds me of a rustic angel of shavano now that I look back at the line.

I desperately need to go back within this year. I always feel the need to get Argie back in me, no matter what season. And it always happens, unfortunately for them, when their currency is in the absolute shitter.