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Thread: Water.....

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluff View Post
    Too many people living
    Really, you could've left it there.

    We're closing in on 7.8 billion people
    We were at 3.8 only fiftyish years ago

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    ... But your original assertion/question was that the water must be somewhere else if it's not in our rivers, because it must be water somewhere. When that is not at all true.
    For every degree the surface temps warm the atmosphere can hold 7% more water. As the moisture evaporates from the land and ocean surfaces the atmosphere gains the water so yes, it is water somewhere. We have a nearly closed loop.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluff View Post
    Seems like no amount of regulation or reduction will solve this. Only delay the inevitable. Too many people living in and continuing to grow / develop in areas where there isn’t enough water.

    Think we need to engineer our way out of this. Need some government funded, private company executed desalination system on a grand scale to move clean water to the headwaters of the CO river (or wherever deemed the best fit).

    With that, good luck with permits, environmental issues, and funding something like this. We built the Hoover Dam
    Yeah, because the Klamath Project has worked out so well at bending the environment to our will...

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    Really, you could've left it there.

    We're closing in on 7.8 billion people
    We were at 3.8 only fiftyish years ago
    Soylent Green just may be the ultimate solution.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK47bp View Post
    You talking about drinking piss?


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    No I'm talking about other people drinking piss
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Anyone know how much water the golf courses in the lower basin states use? Iím curious if golf courses alone are enough to make up the 2-4 M acre feet they need to cut.


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    Using water use data nationally, an 18-hole golf course uses an average of 152.5 acre-feet of water per year to irrigate 80.7 acres of turfgrass.
    https://www.gcsaa.org/uploadedfiles/...ion-report.pdf

    Just water the greens, let the rest go brown

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danno View Post
    Oceans are rising pretty rapidly, that seems to be a fact. And humans are mostly water, there seems to be an ever-growing number of us.

    Plus, is the earth a fully closed system where water must stay water? Like, we have always had the exact same amount of water and always will? That's a huge assumption that someone sciencey should address, because I am not sure I buy it coming from someone who is asking about where all the water went?
    Hoomans have 1.5 gallons each, we don't get that back until they're dead

  8. #133
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    A Deathstill was a place where the water of a person's dead body could be reclaimed. On Arrakis, water was the most precious commodity. According to Fremen tradition, a man's water belonged to his tribe. As a result, the Fremen developed deathstills as a way of reclaiming the water of their dead, since it belonged to the tribe, and the dead had no further use of it.
    2080 Colorado.

  9. #134
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    Works for wasting water too.. Couple years ago the drought was out this way and snowmaking was impacted some..

    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  10. #135
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    Atmospheric escape is peanuts (currently) so let's not get too distracted from the discussion of water policy.

    copypasta from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_escape


    Atmospheric escape is the loss of planetary atmospheric gases to outer space. A number of different mechanisms can be responsible for atmospheric escape; these processes can be divided into thermal escape, non-thermal (or suprathermal) escape, and impact erosion. The relative importance of each loss process depends on the planet's escape velocity, its atmosphere composition, and its distance from its star. Escape occurs when molecular kinetic energy overcomes gravitational energy; in other words, a molecule can escape when it is moving faster than the escape velocity of its planet. Categorizing the rate of atmospheric escape in exoplanets is necessary to determining whether an atmosphere persists, and so the exoplanet's habitability and likelihood of life.

    Thermal escape mechanisms

    Thermal escape occurs if the molecular velocity due to thermal energy is sufficiently high. Thermal escape happens at all scales, from the molecular level (Jeans escape) to bulk atmospheric outflow (hydrodynamic escape).

    One classical thermal escape mechanism is Jeans escape, named after British astronomer Sir James Jeans, who first described this process of atmospheric loss. In a quantity of gas, the average velocity of any one molecule is measured by the gas's temperature, but the velocities of individual molecules change as they collide with one another, gaining and losing kinetic energy. The variation in kinetic energy among the molecules is described by the Maxwell distribution. The kinetic energy, mass, and velocity of a molecule are related by [E=.5mv^2]. Individual molecules in the high tail of the distribution (where a few particles have much higher speeds than the average) may reach escape velocity and leave the atmosphere, provided they can escape before undergoing another collision; this happens predominantly in the exosphere, where the mean free path is comparable in length to the pressure scale height. The number of particles able to escape depends on the molecular concentration at the exobase, which is limited by diffusion through the thermosphere.

    Three factors strongly contribute to the relative importance of Jeans escape: mass of the molecule, escape velocity of the planet, and heating of the upper atmosphere by radiation from the parent star. Heavier molecules are less likely to escape because they move slower than lighter molecules at the same temperature. This is why hydrogen escapes from an atmosphere more easily than carbon dioxide. Second, a planet with a larger mass tends to have more gravity, so the escape velocity tends to be greater, and fewer particles will gain the energy required to escape. This is why the gas giant planets still retain significant amounts of hydrogen, which escape more readily from Earth's atmosphere. Finally, the distance a planet orbits from a star also plays a part; a close planet has a hotter atmosphere, with higher velocities and hence, a greater likelihood of escape. A distant body has a cooler atmosphere, with lower velocities, and less chance of escape.


    Hydrodynamic escape

    An atmosphere with high pressure and temperature can also undergo hydrodynamic escape. In this case, a large amount of thermal energy, usually through extreme ultraviolet radiation, is absorbed by the atmosphere. As molecules are heated, they expand upwards and are further accelerated until they reach escape velocity. In this process, lighter molecules can drag heavier molecules with them through collisions as a larger quantity of gas escapes. Hydrodynamic escape has been observed for exoplanets close to their host star, including the hot Jupiter HD 209458b.

    Non-thermal (suprathermal) escape

    Escape can also occur due to non-thermal interactions. Most of these processes occur due to photochemistry or charged particle (ion) interactions.

    Photochemical escape

    In the upper atmosphere, high energy ultraviolet photons can react more readily with molecules. Photodissociation can break a molecule into smaller components and provide enough energy for those components to escape. Photoionization produces ions, which can get trapped in the planet's magnetosphere or undergo dissociative recombination. In the first case, these ions may undergo escape mechanisms described below. In the second case, the ion recombines with an electron, releases energy, and can escape.

    Sputtering escape

    Excess kinetic energy from the solar wind can impart sufficient energy to eject atmospheric particles, similar to sputtering from a solid surface. This type of interaction is more pronounced in the absence of a planetary magnetosphere, as the electrically charged solar wind is deflected by magnetic fields, which mitigates the loss of atmosphere.


    The fast ion captures an electron from a slow neutral in a charge exchange collision. The new, fast neutral can escape the atmosphere, and the new, slow ion is trapped on magnetic field lines.

    Charge exchange escape

    Ions in the solar wind or magnetosphere can charge exchange with molecules in the upper atmosphere. A fast-moving ion can capture the electron from a slow atmospheric neutral, creating a fast neutral and a slow ion. The slow ion is trapped on the magnetic field lines, but the fast neutral can escape.

    Polar wind escape

    Atmospheric molecules can also escape from the polar regions on a planet with a magnetosphere, due to the polar wind. Near the poles of a magnetosphere, the magnetic field lines are open, allowing a pathway for ions in the atmosphere to exhaust into space.


    Impact erosion

    The impact of a large meteoroid can lead to the loss of atmosphere. If a collision is sufficiently energetic, it is possible for ejecta, including atmospheric molecules, to reach escape velocity.

    In order to have a significant effect on atmospheric escape, the radius of the impacting body must be larger than the scale height. The projectile can impart momentum, and thereby facilitate escape of the atmosphere, in three main ways: (a) the meteoroid heats and accelerates the gas it encounters as it travels through the atmosphere, (b) solid ejecta from the impact crater heat atmospheric particles through drag as they are ejected, and (c) the impact creates vapor which expands away from the surface. In the first case, the heated gas can escape in a manner similar to hydrodynamic escape, albeit on a more localized scale. Most of the escape from impact erosion occurs due to the third case. The maximum atmosphere that can be ejected is above a plane tangent to the impact site.

  11. #136
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    con't /


    Dominant atmospheric escape and loss processes in the Solar System

    Earth

    Atmospheric escape of hydrogen on Earth is due to Jeans escape (~10–40%), charge exchange escape (~60–90%), and polar wind escape (~10–15%), currently losing about 3 kg/s of hydrogen. The Earth additionally loses approximately 50 g/s of helium primarily through polar wind escape. Escape of other atmospheric constituents is much smaller. A Japanese research team in 2017 found evidence of a small number of oxygen ions on the moon that came from the Earth.

    In 1 billion years, the Sun will be 10% brighter than it is now, making it hot enough for Earth to lose enough hydrogen to space to cause it to lose all of its water
    (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future...Loss_of_oceans).

    Venus

    Recent models indicate that hydrogen escape on Venus is almost entirely due to suprathermal mechanisms, primarily photochemical reactions and charge exchange with the solar wind. Oxygen escape is dominated by charge exchange and sputtering escape. Venus Express measured the effect of coronal mass ejections on the rate of atmospheric escape of Venus, and researchers found a factor of 1.9 increase in escape rate during periods of increased coronal mass ejections compared with calmer space weather.

    Mars

    Primordial Mars also suffered from the cumulative effects of multiple small impact erosion events, and recent observations with MAVEN suggest that 66% of the 36Ar in the Martian atmosphere has been lost over the last 4 billion years due to suprathermal escape, and the amount of CO2 lost over the same time period is around 0.5 bar or more.

    The MAVEN mission has also explored the current rate of atmospheric escape of Mars. Jeans escape plays an important role in the continued escape of hydrogen on Mars, contributing to a loss rate that varies between 160 - 1800 g/s. Jeans escape of hydrogen can be significantly modulated by lower atmospheric processes, such as gravity waves, convection, and dust storms. Oxygen loss is dominated by suprathermal methods: photochemical (~1300 g/s), charge exchange (~130 g/s), and sputtering (~80 g/s) escape combine for a total loss rate of ~1500 g/s. Other heavy atoms, such as carbon and nitrogen, are primarily lost due to photochemical reactions and interactions with the solar wind.

    Titan and Io

    Saturn's moon Titan and Jupiter's moon Io have atmospheres and are subject to atmospheric loss processes. They have no magnetic fields of their own, but orbit planets with powerful magnetic fields, which protects a given moon from the solar wind when its orbit is within the bow shock. However Titan spends roughly half of its transit time outside of the bow-shock, subjected to unimpeded solar winds. The kinetic energy gained from pick-up and sputtering associated with the solar winds increases thermal escape throughout the transit of Titan, causing neutral hydrogen to escape. The escaped hydrogen maintains an orbit following in the wake of Titan, creating a neutral hydrogen torus around Saturn. Io, in its transit around Jupiter, encounters a plasma cloud. Interaction with the plasma cloud induces sputtering, kicking off sodium particles. The interaction produces a stationary banana-shaped charged sodium cloud along a part of the orbit of Io.

    Observations of exoplanet atmospheric escape

    Studies of exoplanets have measured atmospheric escape as a means of determining atmospheric composition and habitability. The most common method is Lyman-alpha line absorption. Much as exoplanets are discovered using the dimming of a distant star's brightness (transit), looking specifically at wavelengths corresponding to hydrogen absorption describes the amount of hydrogen present in a sphere around the exoplanet. This method indicates that the hot Jupiters HD209458b and HD189733b and Hot Neptune GJ436b are experiencing significant atmospheric escape.

    Other atmospheric loss mechanisms

    See also: Carbon sequestration

    Sequestration is not a form of escape from the planet, but a loss of molecules from the atmosphere and into the planet. It occurs on Earth when water vapor condenses to form rain or glacial ice, when carbon dioxide is sequestered in sediments or cycled through the oceans, or when rocks are oxidized (for example, by increasing the oxidation states of ferric rocks from Fe2+ to Fe3+). Gases can also be sequestered by adsorption, where fine particles in the regolith capture gas which adheres to the surface particles.

  12. #137
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    well there ya go again, bein' all sciency an 'shit. TOILETS MUST BE FLUSHED! Molecules and atoms into space?!?!? Then it's not a vacuum now is it????

  13. #138
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    So Danno is full of shit?

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by PB View Post
    On a more serious note ......
    Any one know hat camel meat tastes like?
    Baby camel is the ultimate honor for dinner.

    Tastes like camel.

  15. #140
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    One classical thermal escape mechanism is Jeans escape, named after British astronomer Sir James Jeans, who first described this process of atmospheric loss


    Heh. Heh. I have experienced this gas escape through the jeans.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by KQ View Post
    There are senior and junior water rights. Some rights come from wells some from surface water. It's all monitored and reported to the state (my pump has a meter on it). Junior and the first to get cut back/shut off but eventually everyone gets shut off if it's bad enough


    Edit: Washington State dept of Ecology not "Fed"
    Thanks KQ!

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I don't know about that. There is a disincentive to conserve water- "use it or lose it" https://www.propublica.org/article/k...-it-or-lose-it
    Great article, thank you. I'm imagining a ton of ranchers/farmers have the 'use it or lose it' but have much less to use than their allotment and therefore know much more than us as they figure out how to work with less. Or maybe not? And the ones in the article, who have way too much to use, certainly know more than us douchebags - hell one is on the water board and shut down the CO attempt to change that law, pretty sure in general 'we' don't know more than him about water conservation. maybe they don't care about saving water but they could talk your ear off about it. Anyways I'm hear to learn myself, it's such a weird part of the west.

  17. #142
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    In CA, especially the Central Valley, ag is highly dependent on groundwater, which was never regulated. In 2014 the state passed a groundwater sustainability law. Water districts had until 2020 to come up with sustainability plans and until 2040 to achieve sustainability. IOW long after the state has completely dried up and blown away. Growers fought the requrement to even report groundwater usage tooth and nail, let alone restricting its use.

    Re meat. Whie eliminating or reducing meat consumption, especially beef, will not solve the water problem it will do more than make a dent. On a per calorie basis and on a per gram of protein basis the water footprint of meat is many times that of plants, with beef the worst offender (and the best tasting). With meat making up about 30% of worldwide food growing water usage significantly restricting raising meat would certainly have a major impact. If anyone wants to call me on it I'll post some sources but I'm feeling lazy right now.
    But please, we should spare Devin Nunes' cow. It's probably a milk cow anyway. (I have no idea what the water footprint of milk is, although it is pretty wet.)

  18. #143
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    Eat bugs. Problem solved.

  19. #144
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    Soylent green is just a bandaid.

    Sure is a lot of water in that Lake Tahoe.

    Yall should be using that up.

    Think of all the golf courses.
    watch out for snakes

  20. #145
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    Don't forget about all the water we need to make toxic waste of for fracking... MURIKA!!!
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foggy_Goggles View Post
    If you are interested in how the conversation actually goes down, this would be a pretty good place to start https://www.coloradoriverdistrict.or...water-seminar/ Not ironically being held in the desert.

    Remember, it all makes more sense when you substitute the word money for the word water. It makes for some strange partnerships. Here in the Headwaters, we love videos of fly fishing and rafting overlaid with some swamp donkeys chomping on willows. Most of the time those are funded by downstream Ag users that want their pipes full of money.

    So you get the welfare grass farmers in their King Ranch's and the Trout Unlimited retiree do gooders in their Telsa having coffee and donuts while putting the stick eye on Denver Water and Northern Water representatives. Then you have the politicians that need to figure out if the dress code is Wranglers, Carhartt's or Prana.
    Actually the old man retired and went to doing good work with TU, the blue ribbon council, and other conservation orgs, no teslas though, Its introduced me to a lot of cool voli ops and peeps
    hughs right you sure pull n post some weird e-flexes
    fuck Arron Million and takin our damn water to water your sad blue grass greenie lawns
    this is what we do and fight for and will continue to
    https://www.cultureunplugged.com/doc...reen-with-Envy


    after askin the heavenly father to unfuck our water problems and kickin the leakin can down the dusty road failed
    we finally found some secondary water metering loot
    https://www.abc4.com/news/secondary-...nd%2020-30%25.
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
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  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
    Vote HOW exactly? When the most "environmentally" minded governmental bodies in the country can't even curb their raging hard on for almond farming and sucking the Colorado dry, it's tough to believe they're the solution. Clearly the R's are not the answer either, hence my pessimism on this entire front. It's depressing.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app
    What does almond farming have to do with the Colorado river?

  23. #148
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    this one sums up the almond thing
    and doesnt bring much joy to me
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6290202/?ref_=vp_vi_tt
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    this one sums up the almond thing
    and doesnt bring much joy to me
    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6290202/?ref_=vp_vi_tt
    Almond farming in CA is a travesty but what does that have to do with sucking the Colorado river dry?

  25. #150
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    not much the owens valley goatfuck travesty of water wastage and mismanagement is its own problem and doing
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

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