Water.....

[LongShortLong]

Drill a whole bunch of really deep holes so some of that excess water that's draining off into the ocean can get to the aquifers to help replenish them somewhat. Just a thought...

There is talk and studies ongoing to flood fields and orchards in winter. Basically use flood plains to recharge aquifers as mother nature intended. No drilling required and most of the infrastructure is already present. And still farm it when it dries.

[Toadman]

There is talk and studies ongoing to flood fields and orchards in winter. Basically use flood plains to recharge aquifers as mother nature intended. No drilling required and most of the infrastructure is already present. And still farm it when it dries.

Depends on soil type. So, no idea if that is practical. But that would be an ideal solution.

[bodywhomper]

It’s already happening.

[muted reborn]

Whoa, what about the buncha assholes who started major farms in a desert using subsidized water?

As i said, 'they aren't all crybabies' as there is a ton of nuance that varies by state and farmers. Some are crybabies for sure based on their circumstances

Likewise, do farmers have any right to that water just because a bunch of assholes claimed it over a hundred years ago so they could run low value businesses in a desert? Surely ancient claims is one of the stupidest inefficient ways to allocate resources.

Legally, anything the voters want is possible.

C'mon.

In Colorado it sure is legal, though it is not a simple process. You have to go through a "change of water rights" case in water court, which is lengthy and expensive. And "buy and dry" is a very touchy subject here, politically speaking, because it does more than just move water to the city from a particular farm, it decimates rural communities and the rural environment (as land is fallowed, it can make the whole local environment drier and dustier).

Thanks for the info, I apprecaite it.

[Not DJSapp]

Pump it under ground. I know not as easy as it seems.

The concept is quite easy. The magnitude at which is would need to be done is hard. Let's talk through it:

You can't concentrate all of the water in one place. You'd need recharge wells everywhere. I don't know what the right number is, so let's say one per 50 acres.The Central Valley is 27,000 square miles, or 17,280,000 acres. At 1 pump per 50 acres, that is ~350,000 pumps.

A decent depth irrigation well in CA runs ~$100/foot of depth but recharge wells are more complicated so assume $200/foot. Irrigation wells go to around 500', so assume 1000' depth for a recharge well to let it filter back up to the 500 foot layer. That is 200k per well, which is $70 billion just to build the wells. That's a lot. We're also assuming the handful of well contractors in CA have infinite resources and won't start jacking up prices after the first 10,000 wells.

Now you have to channel all of the water to those wells. Let's just assume between farmers and urban planning that just magically happens. Next you need the electricity to power those wells which will require an upgrade to the energy grid. Then, you'll realize all of these pumps need to run all at the same time during and right after the storms which puts a 26,250 MW (assume a 100 hp pump (75kw)) on the grid. Looking at CalISO's site, today's energy forecast for the whole damn state is 28,200 MW. These pumps will double our total energy use. https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx


So back to my point on people not understanding the order of magnitude of the issue. The solutions are simple. The size is hard.

[bodywhomper]

Jay Lund: “Despite this year's flooding, up until today, last year's northern California precipitation exceeded this year's precipitation. Last year became a drought year, so anything can happen. We can have drought and flood in the same year.”

https://twitter.com/jaylund113/statu...5beXlv3Bycz-AA

[gravitylover]

The concept is quite easy. The magnitude at which is would need to be done is hard. Let's talk through it:

You can't concentrate all of the water in one place. You'd need recharge wells everywhere. I don't know what the right number is, so let's say one per 50 acres.The Central Valley is 27,000 square miles, or 17,280,000 acres. At 1 pump per 50 acres, that is ~350,000 pumps.

A decent depth irrigation well in CA runs ~$100/foot of depth but recharge wells are more complicated so assume $200/foot. Irrigation wells go to around 500', so assume 1000' depth for a recharge well to let it filter back up to the 500 foot layer. That is 200k per well, which is $70 billion just to build the wells. That's a lot. We're also assuming the handful of well contractors in CA have infinite resources and won't start jacking up prices after the first 10,000 wells.

Now you have to channel all of the water to those wells. Let's just assume between farmers and urban planning that just magically happens. Next you need the electricity to power those wells which will require an upgrade to the energy grid. Then, you'll realize all of these pumps need to run all at the same time during and right after the storms which puts a 26,250 MW (assume a 100 hp pump (75kw)) on the grid. Looking at CalISO's site, today's energy forecast for the whole damn state is 28,200 MW. These pumps will double our total energy use. https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx


So back to my point on people not understanding the order of magnitude of the issue. The solutions are simple. The size is hard.

As they shut in all of the oil wells over the next XX years they have a built in quantity of deep drilled holes. I expect that they'd need to "reroute" the lower extents of many of them but the fracking technology developed over the last few decades should allow that with some sort of relative ease. As they scale down the oil drilling there ought to be resources available to turn them into water injection holes. This should extend to many of the regions of the country where we're currently depleting the groundwater faster than it can be naturally recharged. I see big potential rather than insurmountable problems.

[Not DJSapp]

As they shut in all of the oil wells over the next XX years they have a built in quantity of deep drilled holes. I expect that they'd need to "reroute" the lower extents of many of them but the fracking technology developed over the last few decades should allow that with some sort of relative ease. As they scale down the oil drilling there ought to be resources available to turn them into water injection holes. This should extend to many of the regions of the country where we're currently depleting the groundwater faster than it can be naturally recharged. I see big potential rather than insurmountable problems.

There have been ~250,000 oil wells drilled in CA since the late 1800's, the majority of them are in Kern County (which could be useful) and the LA basin (not as useful, they're very close to the ocean and LA doesn't pump much groundwater as salinity becomes an issue) so rerouting isn't really viable. Most of these wells are actually plugged to boot. This is also assuming the wells that aren't plugged are in a condition that they could even handle being converted which is probably not likely.

I'm all for seeing the potential of big projects, but the first step into action is realizing the size of the task. I'm a believer in big public works like CA high speed rail, but getting money for large public works projects is hard. Really, really, REALLY hard. You have to show real results and quickly or else the program can go down the tubes (CAHSR isn't doing well with this). The dollars I was quoting is actual construction cost, so the whole program would cost 3x that to go through all the red tape. So we're talking about a dollar amount that is 20% of the entire infrastructure bill, just to build the pumps. Upgrading the energy situation is something I don't know how to put a price tag on. How's that cold fusion coming along?

Nothing in construction is impossible. The issues always come from a matter of pubilc goodwill and funding. We could solve water in California for $2 trillion dollars, sure. But people would rather pay $6 for lettuce.

[gravitylover]

It's not just CA that needs its aquifers replenished. Most of the prime growing regions in the midwest are in trouble and in Florida the ground keeps collapsing and swallowing stuff up. I have a feeling the pain will be significant enough that the money will be found to make it happen.

[ötzi]

Where are you getting all this water to pump down the holes?

[bodywhomper]

Nothing in construction is impossible. The issues always come from a matter of pubilc goodwill and funding. We could solve water in California for $2 trillion dollars, sure. But people would rather pay $6 for lettuce.

Interestingly, I noticed that Dettinger has stated that the ballpark cost for response and recovery from an ARKStorm is between $700-800B.

[Dantheman]

Depends on soil type. So, no idea if that is practical. But that would be an ideal solution.

A very large portion of the CV is underlain by an impermeable hardpan, the Corcoran Clay: https://databasin.org/datasets/c50df...3b8fe38ab097f/

Saturating the soil above a hardpan to or sufficiently near the ground surface in an environment where evaporation exceeds precipitation causes soil salinization which ruins it for agriculture, often permanently. This is already a problem in much of the CV due to over-irrigation (https://www.watereducation.org/post/...itical-problem) and ill-conceived and ill-constructed solutions led to the creation of one of the biggest environmental catastrophes in California's history, Kesterson Reservoir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesterson_Reservoir).

[JimmyCarter]

[ötzi]

Is that our new measure for rainstorms, kinda like Ogdens?

"How much rain did we get last night?"

"Like 17-18 Winnipesaukees."

[dunfree]

Whoa, what about the buncha assholes who started major farms in a desert using subsidized water?

They aren't all crybabies IMO. Their argument is that they shouldn't give up their water rights because a buncha assholes hundreds of miles away decided to build major cities in a desert is valid IMO. But it would be nice if they compromise a bit for the greater good of humanity. Or maybe they sell their rights to cities for a fortune and quit farming? - not that I have any idea if that's possible legally?

I think some of the story of California is they are pretty much the same group of people.

[JimmyCarter]

Is that our new measure for rainstorms, kinda like Ogdens?

"How much rain did we get last night?"

"Like 17-18 Winnipesaukees."

I can’t see why it wouldn’t catch on

[ötzi]

Spelling it could be a challenge for some I suppose.

[JimmyCarter]

Spelling it could be a challenge for some I suppose.

It’s spelled just like it’s pronounced!

[Not DJSapp]

Where are you getting all this water to pump down the holes?

Immediate capture of all rainfall in the central valley which is magically routed to the nearby injection pump. I intentionally glossed over that part, as it is the most infeasible part of implementing injection on a massive scale. As DTM noted, injection needs to go deep as the clay layer issue in the valley is real. Some kind of balance would be needed to keep the rivers flowing to some degree.

Interestingly, I noticed that Dettinger has stated that the ballpark cost for response and recovery from an ARKStorm is between $700-800B.

With politics, the budget for disaster recovery and war is unlimited. We will rebuild, again. For the 5th time. But we won't spend a dime on trying to prevent this from happening a sixth time!

[Meadow Skipper]

Wouldn't this also result in $8 lettuce?

About time we started paying the actual price/impacts of what we consume.

Whoa, what about the buncha assholes who started major farms in a desert using subsidized water?

This

The size is hard.

And this.

With politics, the budget for disaster recovery and war is unlimited. We will rebuild, again. For the 5th time. But we won't spend a dime on trying to prevent this from happening a sixth time!

And finally, this. My experience in wildfire supports this to the nth degree.

[BCMtnHound]

About time we started paying the actual price/impacts of what we consume.

^^Absofuckinlutely. Far overdue.

[gravitylover]

Where are you getting all this water to pump down the holes?

All of that rain that's running into the ocean because the reservoirs west of the Sierras can't handle it all at the same time.

I know that I'm eating a lot less lettuce and other leafy greens now that lettuce is $5 a head. Actually, a bunch of western grown veggies has gotten too expensive considering how short their shelf life is so I've transitioned to more frozen and canned stuff.

[bodywhomper]

With politics, the budget for disaster recovery and war is unlimited. We will rebuild, again. For the 5th time. But we won't spend a dime on trying to prevent this from happening a sixth time!

With federal disasters, it’s a % of the estimated total disaster response/recovery that typically goes to hazard mitigation. If I remember right, the state is swimming with hazard mitigation funds and struggling with the planning, design, and implementation. I haven’t thought or read deeply enough about the hold-up, but am guessing that it is mostly red tape.

I believe there’s a large GW recharge project in Provo.

I also saw that FEMA is trying to fund a GW recharge in Kern Co where floodwaters would be diverted into abandoned mineshafts.

The government (all levels) planned and approved a pretty great flood control project to reduce flooding in the towns in the Napa Valley. Congress has to allocate for it every few years. I can’t remember how many years (decades?) they’re behind schedule.

[old goat]

Where are you getting all this water to pump down the holes?

A lot more dry years than wet years lately.

[Toadman]

Where are you getting all this water to pump down the holes?

Well, one place it could come from is the dams and instead of releasing most of it down stream for flood control, they would need to build a series of water pipes to divert some of that water to suitable farm land.

Interesting read on some of what we have been discussing and that costs and issues of trying to capture and store more of that rainfall from these big AR events.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/californi...175337713.html