Water.....

[topwater]

Interesting that nuts get so much press about water usage but missing is alfalfa, which uses roughly the same amount of water as almonds or pasture, which uses more water.

I wonder why high value crops get shamed while low value feed gets a pass. According to the below article, 85% of economic value of CA agriculture is fruits, nuts, and vegetables and only use half of the irrigated land.

https://www.pressdemocrat.com/articl...he-most-water/

[muted reborn]

Alfalfa doesn't get a pass at all, it's frequently mentioned in water news out west. I see it in many many articles in this past year and beyond.

[Meadow Skipper]

Does alfalfa get exported much? Or do CA meat products that get fed hay?

I guess I see the real problem as the exports.

[Mazderati]

Alfalfa exports are hudge.

[dunfree]

Does alfalfa get exported much? Or do CA meat products that get fed hay?

I guess I see the real problem as the exports.

hay/alfalfa trucks going east on 88 and 120 used to be a regular sighting, and baffled me

Definitely some California beef that gets finished on molasses and newsprint - the trucks go from Crockett to the valley

[muted reborn]

Alfalfa exports are hudge.

$880 million of alfalfa exports in 2021.

[Mazderati]

I mean, it's a lot and isn't just alfalfa. I'm seeing ~1.5B in dollar value on hay as a whole in 2021. Someone else can do the math on water, other resources used, and opportunity loss to produce it.

[Meadow Skipper]

Well, exporting alfalfa seems kind of egregious to me, like nuts. Especially since the H2O is subsidized.

[Mazderati]

It is nuts. Except it's also alfalfa.

[Meadow Skipper]

It is nuts. Except it's also alfalfa.

Nuts is nuts, right?

[Mazderati]

Totally nuts.

[old goat]

One of the more interesting facts in Cadillac Desert is that at the same time the Bureau of Reclamation was heavily subsidizing water for alfalfa growers in the west the Dept of AGriculture was paying farmers in the east not to grow it.

The agriculture/water problem in a nutshell is that the sun is in one place and the water is in another. Who would have thought?

[mcski]

Saw a semi traveling west over donner summit last week w a full load of hay. My kid asked where is the hay from and where is it going? I can’t imagine hay is getting imported into CA from The east but idk. More agg / water jinga for sure

[bodywhomper]

Is there hay grown in NV? There’s quite a bit grown in owens valley.

Apparently, there’s data that shows GW recharge occurring more in CA during big winters when many reservoirs were primarily operated to meet ag contracts prior to the lawsuits that resulted in court settlements to allow for more enviro releases. Also seen this argument, apparently with supporting data, that the change in ag water availability due to court settlements related to special status species has resulted in long term change in Central Valley land use and conversion of prime ag lands (soil-based) to urbanized uses. There’s also a related issue in the Central Valley of conversion/development of the floodplain to urbanized uses….

[climberevan]

There's quite a lot of agriculture and particularly alfalfa grown in NV. The Smith Valley, which is fed by the Bridgeport reservoir (Sierra runoff), is a major producer.

My little valley (Carson) has a ton of alfalfa, because apparently we've decided that exporting water in that form is a good move.

[old goat]

Is there hay grown in NV? There’s quite a bit grown in owens valley.

Apparently, there’s data that shows GW recharge occurring more in CA during big winters when many reservoirs were primarily operated to meet ag contracts prior to the lawsuits that resulted in court settlements to allow for more enviro releases. Also seen this argument, apparently with supporting data, that the change in ag water availability due to court settlements related to special status species has resulted in long term change in Central Valley land use and conversion of prime ag lands (soil-based) to urbanized uses. There’s also a related issue in the Central Valley of conversion/development of the floodplain to urbanized uses….

So what your're saying is that when farmers got a lot more reservoir water and fish got less a lot of that water went into the groundwater. Do you suppose that means the farmers were taking more water than they need to grow their crops.
How many species is it OK to destroy so we can have almonds?
As far of conversion of floodpain to housing---that is not a necessary and inevitable consequences of decreased water delivery. Someone had to approve building houses in a floodplain.
There is no doubt that if drought continues some farmers will go out of business, some ag land will become desert (again), some cities may be abadoned. That has been the case for millenia. Why would anyone think we're immune to it now.

[bodywhomper]

So what your're saying is that when farmers got a lot more reservoir water and fish got less a lot of that water went into the groundwater. Do you suppose that means the farmers were taking more water than they need to grow their crops.
How many species is it OK to destroy so we can have almonds?
As far of conversion of floodpain to housing---that is not a necessary and inevitable consequences of decreased water delivery. Someone had to approve building houses in a floodplain.
There is no doubt that if drought continues some farmers will go out of business, some ag land will become desert (again), some cities may be abadoned. That has been the case for millenia. Why would anyone think we're immune to it now.

What I’m saying is that others are sharing this data. There’s renewed interest because we just had another significant flood event.

I’m not exactly sure how or where the GW recharge was happening prior to 1990.

The recovery of spp is complicated. Apparently, most listed fish species in CA have been in decline for at least 10 yrs. Central coastal coho are likely entering an “extinction vortex.” The state has already listed, and the federal gov will soon list, the foothill yellow legged frog for protection. One of the 5 reasons causing that spp decline and needing protection is water releases for the management and recovery of protected fish spp. another reason is water management for anthropocentric uses (human, ag, hydro power).

The development trends of the Central Valley for the last 30 years (and beyond) have definitely been driven by water availability and who is selling their large private parcels. Development in the floodplain is similar (isn’t Natomas Basin an example?). A reason “prime farmland” is given that designation, based on the soils, is because it is (or was) floodplain.

[bodywhomper]

Info about reservoir storage versus snowpack storage: https://cnap.ucsd.edu/storage_in_sierra_ucrb/

[Toadman]

Lake Sashta filling up.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/drenched-...234015798.html

[SumJongGuy]

Snowpack's no longer holding the water long enough to disperse it in manageable amounts over time..

Capturing it in manmade lakes and reservoirs seems too daunting a task logistically and geographically..

Not capturing it results in insane flooding, mudslides, and not having enough available to fight fires over the dry season..

Does that sum things up?

[altasnob]

Snowpack's no longer holding the water long enough to disperse it in manageable amounts over time..

Capturing it in manmade lakes and reservoirs seems too daunting a task logistically and geographically..

Not capturing it results in insane flooding, mudslides, and not having enough available to fight fires over the dry season..

Does that sum things up?

In my view, what some view as "insane flooding and mudslides" is actually completely normal and just a result of humans inhabiting lands that have always flooded, and were always susceptible to mudslides.

Reservoirs don't make sense not just because of logistics and geography but also environmental regs and the fact reservoirs are inefficient as they lose water to evaporation.

The Atlantic recently had an article on California's ancient aquifers. The water being extracted from the aquifer is 10,000 years old, meaning it would take 10,000 years of letting water naturally percolate through the soil to resupply the aquifer once it is depleted.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/...-water/671652/

California might be the most human manipulated place on planet Earth. There are just too many humans living in a place that the natural environment can't support. That's why I always get a chuckle of Californians complaining about traffic and crowds.

[evdog]

Well, exporting alfalfa seems kind of egregious to me, like nuts. Especially since the H2O is subsidized.

Reading this page reminded me of this article from a few years ago. May have been posted already upthread. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...e-saudi-arabia

Foreign companies buying up US land that comes with water rights and exporting the crops.

That 1877 water claim, now owned by the Palo Verde Irrigation District, ensures that Blythe has “unquantified water rights for beneficial use”; in other words, as much water as those living and farming within the district could possibly need in this water-scarce region, and for free.

The Palo Verde Irrigation District is not allowed to sell the water – not to the company Calistoga, say, for bottled water, but not to their farmers, either. Blythe farmers are thus only charged to cover the water district’s overhead – $77 an acre a year, an astonishingly low rate.

[Meadow Skipper]

There was this segment on the evening news tonight. Wall Street investment firms are buying up Colorado property just for water rights. I can’t see this playing out well. But it was good to see it in the news, maybe more people will pick up on the coming problems. Though I guess only geezers like me watch network evening news.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-yor...arce-resource/

"I view these drought profiteers as vultures," Mueller said. "They're looking to make a lot of money off this public resource. Water in Colorado, water in the West, is your future. Without water you have no future."

[LongShortLong]

am I missing some zeros or reading this wrong?

Central Arizona Project $165.00 per acre foot wholesale water
Denver Water $18,980.00 per acre foot wholesale water

https://www.denverwater.org/contract...opment-charges

https://library.cap-az.com/documents...e-Schedule.pdf

Those prices are at different ends of the water system. The CAP prices are to the water treatment facility. The Denver prices are at the tap. Also, the CAP prices come from a massive federal project (subsidy, socialism).

So a better comparison would be Phoenix water rates
https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservice...tory3-1-22.pdf
Roughly $4 per CCF works out to $1800 per acre foot.

If you read Cadillac Desert, a central premise is: water flows uphill toward money and power. It's clearly working for Arizona. I bet some California farmers needed Arizona votes to build a few dams on the lower Colorado River. Political power extracts the federal money makes the water flow.

The Denver prices do seem sky high... they need more socialism. Or move to a dry desert. Or get the feds to build the Central Colorado Project (call it CCP)

[LongShortLong]

Perhaps we could build some canals and pumps to The Grand Canyon? Ya, I get that's harder than curing cancer but why not start digging anyway? Wasn't that where an unbelievable amount of water from parts north and west ended up at one time?

We could, but there's no water for them to pump. It looks like water, you can even raft on it. But it's all allocated to water users. In fact it's badly over allocated.

Homework for you:
Figure out how many dams and reservoirs are already on that river
And pumps and canals
Figure out how big they are and how empty
Read about water disputes with Mexico
Check out how much river water flows to the sea (Colorado river delta)
Hint: all the water is diverted before the delta, it's an environmental disaster