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  1. #201
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    Well said sir.

    I do think the continued references to Watergate actually distract some people from the current situation. It really is not comparable.

  2. #202
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    Would we have discussed Watergate hearings here?

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I don't give a fuck how history will see it. I'll be dead. I give a fuck about what's happening to my country now and what, if anything, can be done to stop it.
    And I certainly don't care how the rest of the world sees it. We're the ones living with it.

    I agree Trump is not THE problem. He didn't create the divisions in this country that led a lot of people to vote for him. He just exploited the divisions and made them worse. But if you don't think that his trying to steal an election is worth having a tantrum over--that's scary to me. What he did after the election was of a different order of magnitude and qualitatively different than pussy grabbing or drinking bleach. And certainly far far worse than breaking into the Democrat's headquarters and paying hush money to cover it up.

    Don't take my word for it. Listen to the Republicans testifying against him--people who thought his policies were good for the country, who were willing to ignore all of his bullshit and vote for him again, but who drew the line at planning a coup.
    He did try to steal the election. I think he should go to jail, and I think the the morons on Jan 6th should be shot. Iíd go watch.

    But, as someone who is not a full blooded American, who has lived on several continents has three passports, who grew up abroad hearing the hate, how the world views the greatest democracy in history mattters. We provide support for fledging countries around the world. Both sides acting like two yr olds has brought consequences. My relatives abroad have been shocked at how someone like Trump was elected, they thought America was all Disneyland, literally. I try to explain what I see in decaying mid west rust belt cities. However, on the flip side there are those who cheer for our demise. Actually most do, itís only natural when you grow up beholden to our culture. Our movies, TV shows, clothing, food etc. they take pride in their countries and we gave them more than needed to put us down. Both Trump, and how the democrats reacted, with all the failed attempts to de throne him has helped de stabilize the whole world. My opinion.

    Itís more than just an embarrassment, in my opinion, people see us divided and weak and will exploit that. Itís happening now, in the Ukraine. Not because of anyone man/president, but because our enemies believe we will destroy ourselves.


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  3. #203
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    guys ,,,

    somewhere I have a copy of the Mueller Report, that claims on at least eleven occasions the former president obstructed justice, but that a sitting President is immune from criminal prosecution, referring the matter to Congress -

    we know how that went.


    I believe the former president is A problem - so destructive in his personal ambition that approximately thirty-five percent of the electorate admire him for it ! ( and almost certainly would vote for him again ! )

    I see the corruption of gerrymandering in my home state - district boundaries changed to affect the State legislature and State Senate --
    it is real and it was methodical, more than ten years in it's implementation.


    I believe the former president's behavior is criminal ;
    I believe ,,, we need to move on as a country, as a nation -

    the media still plays a huge role in this - though the media has changed and continues to change. ...

    the hearing(s) are political theater -
    it continues to give attention to an Insurrectionist - a revolutionary !

    after the 2016 election was affected by Russian propaganda, the former president sought to have the 2020 election declared Void.
    ( I will lose a life-long friend who believes - and - insists he witnessed voter fraud )

    the hearings are political theater -
    Congress will hold their hearing and do nothing
    ( how's that Ulvarde gun regulation Bill doing (?) ) --

    I believe it will take generational change to repair the democracy ( or at least the Republic ) And it will take leadership that transcends generations and party affiliations - and gender.

    ( there are ) dark days ahead.


    good luck. skiJ

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Both sidesÖ.
    There it is.

    Anyone making Ďboth sidesí arguments right now is enabling the ONE SIDE that is currently making serious attempts to undermine democracy in this country.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    He did try to steal the election. I think he should go to jail, and I think the the morons on Jan 6th should be shot. I’d go watch.

    But, as someone who is not a full blooded American, who has lived on several continents has three passports, who grew up abroad hearing the hate, how the world views the greatest democracy in history mattters. We provide support for fledging countries around the world. Both sides acting like two yr olds has brought consequences. My relatives abroad have been shocked at how someone like Trump was elected, they thought America was all Disneyland, literally. I try to explain what I see in decaying mid west rust belt cities. However, on the flip side there are those who cheer for our demise. Actually most do, it’s only natural when you grow up beholden to our culture. Our movies, TV shows, clothing, food etc. they take pride in their countries and we gave them more than needed to put us down. Both Trump, and how the democrats reacted, with all the failed attempts to de throne him has helped de stabilize the whole world. My opinion.

    It’s more than just an embarrassment, in my opinion, people see us divided and weak and will exploit that. It’s happening now, in the Ukraine. Not because of anyone man/president, but because our enemies believe we will destroy ourselves.


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    Point taken. I knew as I wrote what I wrote that I was probably wrong. Living here with the mess going on it's hard to remember or understand that other countries still look up to us.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    we need to move on as a country, as a nation -

    the media still plays a huge role in this - though the media has changed and continues to change. ...

    the hearing(s) are political theater -
    it continues to give attention to an Insurrectionist - a revolutionary !
    With all due respect: go fuck yourself with this fucking bullshit.

    (Also, Biden signed the post Uvalde gun law a week ago.)

  7. #207
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    Would we have discussed Watergate hearings here?

    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Point taken. I knew as I wrote what I wrote that I was probably wrong. Living here with the mess going on it's hard to remember or understand that other countries still look up to us.
    The fact the other countries look up to us is all the more reason for the hearings. even if it is a longshot, itís worth attempting to hold trump to some accountability for trying to steal an election.

    There are arguments in favor of Ford pardoning Nixon, but I think in retrospect it was the wrong move and contributed to much of this

    Not going after the president for crimes is the most unamerican thing I can think of. There is nothing in the constitution about pressing criminal charges against a president. Itís just a doj legal opinion. The fact that one tried to actually subvert the vote, is beyond the pale

    Holding our leaders feat to the fire isnít easy but thatís the bar Americans should set for themselves.

    Cynical me, believes all the denial is just further proof Americans have the ability to be just as bad as Nazis if circumstances present themselves. And those that stand up against power are always put in the cross hairs. Iím no fan of liz, but sheís doing the right thing

  8. #208
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    Reconciliation and moving on require taking responsibility.

    Burying our heads in the sand, not looking at the details of how we got here and not disbursing justice to those who have lead us here will just get us more of what we have.

  9. #209
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    DeJong.

    to me, Federal legislation that provides "incentives" for the States to pass red flag laws rings hollow -

    ( NPR reference to insert )
    https://www.npr.org/2022/06/25/11076...gun-safety-law

    I'm not sure from your post what you support -
    an earlier post seemed to expect great results from the hearings ( apparently more than two impeachments accomplished ), though your most recent post seems to defend the former president ;

    if you /// nevermind.
    ' go jump in the lake '

    eleven episodes of obstruction of justice, and an insurrection that attempted to Void the 2020 election -
    That's my b.s. - and your hollow Federal legislation.

    goodbye, DeJong.


    skiJ
    Last edited by skiJ; 07-02-2022 at 02:08 PM.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    though your most recent post seems to defend the former president ;
    SJ, you're killing me here. Your communication on this topic is baffling. FWIW, JBDJ is calling you out because you are saying the hearings are nothing but political theater and somehow are giving more fire to the insurrectionists. And, if I may be so bold, that is a shit take.

    tldr: The Jan 6th public hearings may be imperfect, but this is a crisis situation and, at this point, the only official effort to reveal the scope of the attempted coup and the corrupt players involved. If you value the country and rule of law, one should be demanding more official action - not less. This is not our "bury our head in the sand" and hope for the best moment.

  11. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    He did try to steal the election. I think he should go to jail, and I think the the morons on Jan 6th should be shot. I’d go watch.
    If that's what you want to happen, in your opinion, is there anything that we should do first before we pronounce sentence and start the executions? Would it be a good idea to communicate to the general public just exactly what happened, why it happened, and most importantly why the people who did it deserve their punishment?

    That's a critical part of our system and congressional hearings are a step in that process (as well as being an investigative tool).

    Separately, you've spent a lot of time sparring with people who saw Trump as a threat to democracy over the last few years. I don't think any of them hit you with a flag pole or anything, but some of them were probably pretty mean. In retrospect it turns out their basic fears were right, which brings up two questions: what did they see that you didn't? And what could they have done to convince you? Honestly. "Be nice and hope for the best" is really not an acceptable answer now.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Reconciliation and moving on require taking responsibility.

    Burying our heads in the sand, not looking at the details of how we got here and not disbursing justice to those who have lead us here will just get us more of what we have.
    Democrats did not own their loss in 2016, and some still have not. In my opinion, going after Trump, every time, only emboldened him more. Thatís the kind of guy he is.

    Beating him politically would not have been so hard if the party had moved a little to the center in the last election, and itís crucial they do that now. Why do people scoff at the idea of Bloomberg? He would have wiped the floor with Trump and none of this would have happened. It would have been a landslide. And isnít that what we want? (Except for the media). Someone elected who have the overwhelming majority of votes?




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  13. #213
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    wow. great predictions happening. I wonder if you've been clearly and obviously wrong on anything else, say, in the last few years? Put another way, I don't think your track record awards you much confidence.

  14. #214
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    Carl.

    ' I believe the former president's behavior is criminal. ' And
    ' the (congressional) hearing ... continues to give attention to the insurrectionist - a revolutionary ! '

    nowhere do I promote 'burying heads in the sand' - That is the "shit take. "

    the former president was elected, And Not-reelected Because everyday for six years the media covered his sensational campaign ;

    it does not require Eighteen Months to hold a (congressional) hearing in a "crisis" - but a mid-term election year needs a focal point. ...

    The mechanism to seriously deal with the event(s) of January 6, 2021 lie with the Department of Justice, with the Attorney General.

    ( ... the (congressional) hearing promotes the campaign of the former prez. for the 2024 election --

    there may be a crisis - though we pretty-clearly disagree about the scope of the term 'crisis' and it's use in this context.
    to me, the crisis was the events of January 6, 2021... )


    Today, my thought is I may campaign in my communities Against the former prez. in 2024 - but I believe a better resolution is for the Department of Justice and the State of NewYork to prosecute the criminal.

    but that's my "shit take" - based on misrepresenting what I have written (DeJong), misunderstanding what I have written, and . . .

    I appreciate your making the effort to clarify the discussion...

    on_g is right - moving on requires a reckoning. we did that in November2020 when the former prez. was NOT-re-elected.
    but if the former prez. is the lead - story in the media for the next two-and-a half years, he may be a threat to be elected again.


    good luck. skiJ
    Last edited by skiJ; 07-02-2022 at 02:14 PM.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    The fact the other countries look up to us is all the more reason for the hearings. even if it is a longshot, it’s worth attempting to hold trump to some accountability for trying to steal an election.

    There are arguments in favor of Ford pardoning Nixon, but I think in retrospect it was the wrong move and contributed to much of this

    Not going after the president for crimes is the most unamerican thing I can think of. There is nothing in the constitution about pressing criminal charges against a president. It’s just a doj legal opinion. The fact that one tried to actually subvert the vote, is beyond the pale

    Holding our leaders feat to the fire isn’t easy but that’s the bar Americans should set for themselves.

    Cynical me, believes all the denial is just further proof Americans have the ability to be just as bad as Nazis if circumstances present themselves. And those that stand up against power are always put in the cross hairs. I’m no fan of liz, but she’s doing the right thing
    Agree; I think we look far worse if we do not react strongly and definitively against Trumpism. I'd rather at least try and not succeed than not do anything for fear of looking silly, weak or ineffective, and I really don't think the countries that aren't ruled by autocrats/dictators want us to just roll over.

  16. #216
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    Hereís what I hope the hearings accomplish:

    Make enough Americans aware of the extent of the crimes committed around Jan. 6 that it becomes untenable for the DOJ to avoid pressing charges because that would be too Ďpolitically chargedí.

    I want everyone who committed crimes during the lead up to, and the day of Jan. 6, to be charged for those crimes, so that itís clear to everyone who considers undermining/overthrowing our democracy that there is a price to be paid.

    I want everyone involved to be ineligible for office.

    Ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away wonít achieve any of those goals, and thereís absolutely no indication that the issue is going to go away on itís own.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Here’s what I hope the hearings accomplish:

    Make enough Americans aware of the extent of the crimes committed around Jan. 6 that it becomes untenable for the DOJ to avoid pressing charges because that would be too ‘politically charged’.

    I want everyone who committed crimes during the lead up to, and the day of Jan. 6, to be charged for those crimes, so that it’s clear to everyone who considers undermining/overthrowing our democracy that there is a price to be paid.

    I want everyone involved to be ineligible for office.

    Ignoring the issue and hoping it goes away won’t achieve any of those goals, and there’s absolutely no indication that the issue is going to go away on it’s own.
    100% spot on.

    Transparency & accountability regarding the situation is essential. You cannot even campaign your way out of the dilemma when disinformation is rampant, lousy with bad faith players and bad actors abound with no formal accounting of what actually transpired. One side: 'Don't elect these guys because they are dishonest and corrupt"... their answer: 'dishonest about what?' Their constituency is purposely misinformed and delusional. Saw a headline that said 68% of republicans believe trump on Jan 6th was a set-up by the left wing. Good luck campaigning against that when there's a poor public record of the events. The wheels of justice turn slowly and may not be on your timeline. //edit; I misread SJ last comment so not directing at him re: leaving it to be judged by the electorate alone

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlMega View Post
    Saw a headline that said 68% of republicans believe trump on Jan 6th was a set-up by the left wing.
    Right, it was all a false flag by Antifa.

    But also Trump said he wanted the crowd to keep their weapons, since they werenít going to hurt Ďhimí.

  19. #219
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    Cono didnít bother to tell his foreign relatives that HE voted for dumbass. After all, that might raise some tough questions and undermine credibility. Oh and Cono also thinks 911 and Pearl Harbor were non-serious events because there was no practical way the Japanese or Saudis were gonna overrun Nebraska.

    Your opinion sucks my man.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    DeJong.

    Öyour most recent post seems to defend the former president
    My screen name is literally mocking the former president. Should be obvious which side Iím on.

  21. #221
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    ski J,

    Please take a look at the situation with the state government/state Supreme Court in Wisconsin. It’s now defacto one party rule: Democratic governor is elected? Republican legislators strip him of his powers, Republican Court says it’s all good. Republicans then gerrymander the districts well beyond what the law allows so they can ensure Democrats can’t get elected again, and the Court signs off on the maps.

    That’s the template for the Federal government.

    CPAC was held in Hungary this year for god’s sake, a country that has already achieved what that group is now trying to achieve here: working the levers of system to achieve permanent power and leave a democracy in name only.

    Shit didn’t end on Jan. 6, and it’s not just Trump. It’s much broader than that, and it’s ongoing.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by huckbucket View Post
    Cono didnít bother to tell his foreign relatives that HE voted for dumbass. After all, that might raise some tough questions and undermine credibility. Oh and Cono also thinks 911 and Pearl Harbor were non-serious events because there was no practical way the Japanese or Saudis were gonna overrun Nebraska.

    Your opinion sucks my man.
    Thanks Huck. I respect your opinion.


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  23. #223
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    the situation in wisconsin is very familiar to me -
    I would claim the gerrymandering was not the last step but the first step - initiated before 2010, and largely in-place by 2012 ( see my post up thread ) ;

    I will agree political sabotage activities did not end on January 6 (2021), but in the same neighborhood, relative to the perception in other countries, we are now seen as the Divided States, that are too busy fighting amongst ourselves to be world leaders ( and we can howl all we want about not needing to be world leaders or not wanting to be world leaders, and my response is three words : Putin and Ukraine. ) ;

    I don't know the machinery by how the (congressional) hearing(s) might lead to indictments or charges, and
    I do understand how an incoming president would not want to use the Good Will allowed a new president by having the Justice Department prosecute the former president ( especially in an amazingly close election ) ;

    stuff did not end on January 6th and it's not just the former prez., But such movements generally go as far as the leader ( RossPerot, RalphNadar, etc. ), and I will always believe the former prez. succeeded through the media - and had he not received more media attention than the other seven or eight candidates combined in 2015, his 'movement' would have quietly and relatively quickly faded. and there were several other important factors that all came together in 2016...

    I will go back and re-read the post about worldwide perception, but Summer's posts in the Ulvarde thread, 'If only there was something... ' illustrates Americans' unusual world view - and when the response is,
    ' go f* yourself with this f*-ing b.s. ',

    I'm sorry - no sale.


    good luck. skiJ

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Beating him politically would not have been so hard if the party had moved a little to the center in the last election, and it’s crucial they do that now. Why do people scoff at the idea of Bloomberg? He would have wiped the floor with Trump and none of this would have happened. It would have been a landslide. And isn’t that what we want? (Except for the media). Someone elected who have the overwhelming majority of votes?
    Yeah, the short Jewish billionaire running on climate change and gun control would have really killed it in the Midwest and the South. The guy who tried to ban the Big Gulp? Even New Yorkers didn't take him seriously. (I actually agree with many of his policies, but he was a terrible candidate.)

    And the guy who won (and was the most moderate of the credible candidates) did win the clear majority of votes: 4.45% margin in the popular vote, more than in 2000, 2004, 2012, or 2016.

  25. #225
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    Bolton flatly denies any threat to American Democracy because Trump isn't smart enough.
    https://youtu.be/G-N84UF6upw?t=252


    Entire interview:
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
    >>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<

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