Would we have discussed Watergate hearings here?

[skiJ]

How is it a coup if there is no change to who is in office / in power ?

( as a matter of semantics... )


skiJ

[::: :::]

i think the point is: attempted (yet unsuccessful) coup doesn't make it any less a coup [for the purposes of law & of intent]

[paulster2626]

Paulster2626 seems to think that the Trump admin security screened all people in DC for the march on the capitol that day and that's just not the case...it's at best inaccurate and it's definitely misleading to characterize it that way IMO.

Not at all - the exact opposite. In fact I'm struggling to figure out how you'd infer that. The original suggestion was since the march started with people inside the rally who weren't being allowed in with weapons, that there were no weapons at the capitol riot.

They screened people inside the rally at the ellipse. They couldn't possibly screen anyone else.

People unarmed from the rally march to the capitol.
People possibly armed from outside the rally could also then march to the capitol.

Thus, there were probably people with weapons at the capitol.

Anyway, sorry to keep this going. As you were.

[frorider]

i think the point is: attempted (yet unsuccessful) coup doesn't make it any less a coup [for the purposes of law & of intent]

I think he was trying to make a point about the existing (at that time) President.

The ‘crazy coup’ / ‘half assed coup’ / ‘keystone cops coup’ was, like much of Trump’s corruption and malfeasance, not particularly well planned or executed. Nonetheless, it was an attempt to derail the legitimate process underway in which Biden was becoming the next President. Therefore it constitutes an overthrowing of the government, albeit prior to Biden’s swearing in date. Perhaps this addresses J’s question.

The label isn’t particularly important. We can call it massive voter fraud if you want.

[bodywhomper]

whomp-
my understanding was the goal was to not certify the election and the former prez. would remain in office by any means necessary - indefinitely...

' elected' by a vote in the House ;
amend the Constitution - declare the former prez. ( king for life. any means necessary...

but the election was certified - an action including the former VP, who believed in the process more than the former prez. -

but my understanding is prez. for life was the goal.


skiJ

I understand all of that, but my question was how did trump and friends that hatched this plan in mid-December think it would play out successfully? Like Jan 7, there’d likely be dead lawmakers and their staff, a headless VP, armed oath keepers and proud boys “holding” the capital complex, and an uncertified election.

In my mind, next step would have been that 25th amendment would be invoked, next in line takes over, army/NG called in, possibly more death and destruction, then?….

Regarding armed people at the rally, the leaders of the heavily armed parts of the capital attack did not attend the rally. The doc filmmakers that was with those guys testified about this in the first hearing: they all went out and had tacos during the rally.

[Cono Este]

I gave you the link before. Go to 1:05. Willful ignorance is not reinforcing your right to an opinion. https://youtu.be/bC3_VFFJlSY

"Of course the world now knows that the people who attacked the capitol on January 6 had many different types of weapons...pepper spray, knives, brass knuckles, tazers, body armor, gas masks, battons, blunt weapons. And those were just from the people who chose to go through the metal detectors."

--some republican

Not ignoring you but I can’t get a signal where I am to watch that.


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[skiJ]

okay -
I jumped-in on the idea of semantics
( probably Not the place to do that ) -

to me, a coup results in a change. And since the former prez. was in office / in power, it does not meet the definition of 'a coup' as I understand it.


I can support 'insurrection' , but to me, insurrection makes it sound well thought-out and well-planned
( If you want to make that claim - okay. )

revolt - in the neighborhood of Insurrection - just feels like a better fit to me.
violent, chaotic, disorganized... all the things I saw of January 6, 2021 And the former prez. and the faction of society that want to restore him to power.

I believe this country does approach a dangerous precipice.
If it's a game, it is a potentially dangerous game.

let him live out his days at Mar-Largo. and Moscow.


respectfully. skiJ

[LHutz Esq]

I understand all of that, but my question was how did trump and friends that hatched this plan in mid-December think it would play out successfully? Like Jan 7, there’d likely be dead lawmakers and their staff, a headless VP, armed oath keepers and proud boys “holding” the capital complex, and an uncertified election.

In my mind, next step would have been that 25th amendment would be invoked, next in line takes over, army/NG called in, possibly more death and destruction, then?….

Regarding armed people at the rally, the leaders of the heavily armed parts of the capital attack did not attend the rally. The doc filmmakers that was with those guys testified about this in the first hearing: they all went out and had tacos during the rally.

Uneducated guess? They thought they could use the riot/insurrection/unpeaceful protest as coup leaders have in the past - to give a pretense for "strong response"(tm) in the form of emergency legislation.

Kinda like the Reichstag fire and the Reichstag Fire Decree.

We can call it what we like - but at the time of the Reichstag fire the Nazis were part of the coalition government. So depending on the semantics it wasn't a coup or an insurrection - but the results were still shit.

[Core Shot]

If your insurrection lasts longer than 18 months, keep on investigating

It was a riot. Much more peaceful protesters than the last summer.

I watched some of the original raw footage. I don’t have time for this shit.

The closest anyone got to taking over was goat boy in the speakers chair. Where the one (why only one) guard asked him to please knock it off.

It was the griswalds at Wally World.
Let it go. Drumpf lost and a few angry retards wandered through the capitol.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I can support 'insurrection' , but to me, insurrection makes it sound well thought-out and well-planned
( If you want to make that claim - okay. )

Are you not paying attention to the hearings? The whole point is that what happened on Jan. 6 was not spontaneous, it was THOUGHT OUT AND PLANNED. (I guess whether it was ‘well’ thought out, or ‘well’ planned is up for debate, but I think the intent of the plan is ultimately the important part, not the quality of it.)

[J. Barron DeJong]

If your insurrection lasts longer than 18 months, keep on investigating

It was a riot. Much more peaceful protesters than the last summer.

I watched some of the original raw footage. I don’t have time for this shit.

The closest anyone got to taking over was goat boy in the speakers chair. Where the one (why only one) guard asked him to please knock it off.

It was the griswalds at Wally World.
Let it go. Drumpf lost and a few angry retards wandered through the capitol.

Yeah , I guess you’re right. The ex-president’s plan failed, might as well give him and his team another chance and hope they didn’t learn anything…

(Hey, what happened after the Beer Hall Putsch? My memory is a little hazy on that one.)

[DBdude]

Flynn pleading the 5th in video when asked whether he supported peaceful transition of power, and when asked whether he supported the violence of the rioters, was definitely a memorable thing today.

x 10

[DBdude]

trump ranting to get rid of the metal detectors because so many people wanted to get into his speech that were armed is terrifying

[::: :::]

okay -
I jumped-in on the idea of semantics
( probably Not the place to do that ) -

to me, a coup results in a change

nothing wrong with "attempted coup"

same level of legal consequences

[skiJ]

lost a message I drafted -

' Failed coup attempt ' is not a coup...


good luck... skiJ

[skiJ]

( expectations and the psychology of the would-be revolutionaries.

more to follow )

follow-up -

I had a long message drafted yesterday that was lost to cyberspace -

to -whomper's question, there are better psychologists here that me to speculate about the expectations of the former prez., except, I stand by my earlier comments -
his goal was to maintain Power - preferably, by keeping the election from being certified., or by whatever means are necessary. Executive Order, military force; the guy is on a power trip.

the word I avoided using on Wednesday ( it's Friday ) that someone else used yesterday is treason. treachery against the Country. I see that --


to Jong's claim, the hearings are theater -
what happened on January 6, 2021, was broadcast. people died. the phrase, 'protect the Country ( nation ) against all enemies, foreign and domestic ' rings true to me;
historically, we have had some failed president's, but the former president will have some unusual notes in history.


the importance of the word insurrection - is noted. I believe it gives too much credibility to the January 6 plan - but it has merit in Law that the other words do not.

I still believe the hearings are theater - and we would be better off to not give the former prez, the attention ( And the media attention ) he seeks.
Unfortunately, it remains a sensational story two years later and six years later. and whatever sells gets the attention of the media and the public.

I will go with insurrection. and probably bow-out of this thread.

different than Watergate - but not much different. Yes, it Ukraine gets 8000 posts, Watergate would have been discussed here.


good luck. skiJ

[J. Barron DeJong]

lost a message I drafted -

' Failed coup attempt ' is not a coup...


good luck... skiJ

And attempted murder is not murder… point being?

[skiJ]

outcome.

semantics --

( possible Sentence.

DJong, jr.
it feels a little like ,,,
someone is just trolling for an argument.

please look elsewhere. ))


thanks. skiJ

[Adolf Allerbush]

Not at all - the exact opposite. In fact I'm struggling to figure out how you'd infer that. The original suggestion was since the march started with people inside the rally who weren't being allowed in with weapons, that there were no weapons at the capitol riot.

They screened people inside the rally at the ellipse. They couldn't possibly screen anyone else.

People unarmed from the rally march to the capitol.
People possibly armed from outside the rally could also then march to the capitol.

Thus, there were probably people with weapons at the capitol.

Anyway, sorry to keep this going. As you were.

My misunderstanding

[Cono Este]

If your insurrection lasts longer than 18 months, keep on investigating

It was a riot. Much more peaceful protesters than the last summer.

I watched some of the original raw footage. I don’t have time for this shit.

The closest anyone got to taking over was goat boy in the speakers chair. Where the one (why only one) guard asked him to please knock it off.

It was the griswalds at Wally World.
Let it go. Drumpf lost and a few angry retards wandered through the capitol.

I too wish people would condemn the riots that summer before, but that would be like squeezing blood from a rock.

The difference is this was everyone’s Capitol, I could give a shit about Oregon. And they were making an organized attempt to obstruct the peaceful transition of power. It’s appalling.

However, trying to exaggerate what happened, for short term political purposes, fear of trump returning, to me, is as bad as downplaying what happened.

This will be in our grandkids history books. I think it belongs there, but I don’t trust the people writing the history right now, it’s all personal to them.


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[J. Barron DeJong]

outcome.

semantics --

( possible Sentence.

DJong, jr.
it feels a little like ,,,
someone is just trolling for an argument.

please look elsewhere. ))


thanks. skiJ

I’m not trolling for an argument. I’m genuinely upset that we’re arguing the finer points of language here rather than focusing on the fact that there was a legitimate attempt to overthrow our democracy.

[::: :::]

' Failed coup attempt ' is not a coup...


good luck... skiJ

i fail to understand why this is important to you

[Cono Este]

I’m not trolling for an argument. I’m genuinely upset that we’re arguing the finer points of language here rather than focusing on the fact that there was a legitimate attempt to overthrow our democracy.

When we’re all dead and buried, how history is told matters.




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[J. Barron DeJong]

When we’re all dead and buried, how history is told matters.

Whether or not we still have a functioning democracy in a decade is going to have a much greater effect in how Jan. 6 is described in history books than whether it was more accurately describe as a putsch, a coup, an insurrection, or an ‘attempt’ at any of those things.

[CarlMega]

Are you not paying attention to the hearings? The whole point is that what happened on Jan. 6 was not spontaneous, it was THOUGHT OUT AND PLANNED. (I guess whether it was ‘well’ thought out, or ‘well’ planned is up for debate, but I think the intent of the plan is ultimately the important part, not the quality of it.)

Whether or not we still have a functioning democracy in a decade is going to have a much greater effect in how Jan. 6 is described in history books than whether it was more accurately describe as a putsch, a coup, an insurrection, or an ‘attempt’ at any of those things.

You are on point as usual. Attaining a critical mass of insurrection/rioters was premediated plan to leverage a backend process of interrupting the election confirmation, invalidating state results, replacing electors to superecede the the lawful process. Horrifying. And if it was successful, you'd be reading an entirely different narrative in the US history books. Beyond shameful and should be alarming to everyone regardless of your affiliation.