If only there was something we could do...

[summit]

I am a huge mental health advocate. It is under funded in our society. Improving this priority would reduce gun deaths significantly, but mostly in terms of suicidality. Mental health is horrifically misunderstood in terms of gun crime.

I don't think that mental health is the issue in this specific circumstance, but we don't know and may never know in this specific incident.

Medicalizing criminality is a horrific mistake.

There exists diagnostic boxes into which we can put the fractional (but socially significant) percentage of humanity that will be inevitably and incorrigibly violent, but it isn't because they are ill in the same way that someone with PTSD or depression or ADD or OCD are ill (and each of these is very different).

Stigma is a problem, because though certain affective (eg schizophrenia) and mood (eg bipolar) disorders seem to make up roughly 10% of murderers when looking at older datasets (a disproportionate amount vs the general population), actually very few people who have those disorders commit murder. This particular phenomenon of statistics is hard to parse for the public/policy makers and hard to address for clinicians. To say this differently, someone who is schizophrenic might have 20x the chance of being a murderer vs average, thus explaining overrepresentation among murderers, but the chance that someone with schizophrenia commits murder in their life is <0.1%!!!

When you are talking about diagnosis that actually do present a significant risk of murder, these people don't need to pop a pill. Substance abuse disorders correlate with crime, but that is a highly complex topic and is often comorbid with other issues. Other people have certain types of personality disorders such as antisocial or borderline often only recognized only after the fact, and the mechanisms vary too. The few who are violently psychotic or impassionately enraged tend to target those personally close to them (eg DV) and act on different impulses than someone who is amoral like an Antisocial. Antisocials are basically untreatable, amoral, and though there is a distinction between that personality disorder and psychopathy, the overlap is nearly complete. These people almost always end up in the criminal justice system and usually prison, but sometimes they kill (many) before landing there. Flagging them earlier is the only intervention I can think of, and fraught. Failure to intervene despite spotting the problem is another issue (eg the Aurora theater shooter).

"Support Mental Health" and "Mental Health Awareness" tropes, whether noble or as an excuse, probably have little overlap on functional interventions here.

[The AD]

He had two AR's, one of which was a Daniel Defense with an Eotech on it. The cheapest Daniel Defense is $1870, the Eotech goes for about $600. Not sure what the other brand was but figure at least a grand. The kid had 4-5 grand in guns and ammo, so yeah, that'd take a while.

He had this planned for a long time. What a shame that no one saw the signs--or at least didn't act on their suspicions about this kid.

[Bobby Stainless]

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic. What makes you think they’d be good patrolling a school?

Just to fill you in... A bunch of cops are retired military.

I would say the biggest qualifying factor is combat experience. We are dealing with combat weaponry correct. Wouldn't you want someone with experience rather than some 65 year old blob?

Furthermore, the shooter was killed by an advanced Border Patrol agent part of a "BORDERTAC" team. Chances are hes retired military too.

[dunfree]

Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

at a more practical level the definition of “combat veteran” doesn’t necessarily reflect the skills Bobby thinks he wants
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...iqm_story.html

As for my most recent tour, I don’t tell people I deployed to Baghdad. I say that I deployed to Victory Base Complex (VBC) — the largest, most luxurious base wartime soldiers have ever had the pleasure of visiting. I never set foot in Baghdad proper. The only gunshots I heard were from our shooting range. I never fired a weapon or rode in a convoy or on a helicopter.

[::: :::]

Just to fill you in... A bunch of cops are retired military.

I would say the biggest qualifying factor is combat experience. We are dealing with combat weaponry correct. Wouldn't you want someone with experience rather than some 65 year old blob?

Furthermore, the shooter was killed by an advanced Border Patrol agent part of a "BORDERTAC" team. Chances are hes retired military too.

For a combat role yes
For a school no

We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

[Dexter Rutecki]

Retired veterans with combat experience to patrol schools? This is fucking idiotic. What makes you think they’d be good patrolling a school?

Just performative bullshit from assholes who need their little toy. These are not serious ideas, this is pablum to waste time so nothing gets done so they can buy a few more guns before the next slaughter

This, and all the other bullshit distraction attempts about mental health being a priority, blah blah. Bottom line, as always, is a complete shift in gun regulation (ultra-strict like other countries have--countries that never, ever have these problems) will fix all of this. The rest is just bullshit the gun people have used to distract from what needs to be done--getting rid of most of these guns. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of the problem. It really is that simple, as other countries have shown us. There's nothing so special about us that would make us the exception. Who gives a fuck what 18th century slave owners wrote down (putting aside the misreading of the amendment, which is very clear that the 'right' only applies for the purposes of maintaining a military).

Sickening what people are willing to accept and advocate for.

[ex-powderbroker]

Combat vets aren't necessarily trained to be with kids and may do more damage with their other behavior during non shooting times.
Look, in this case cops were on the scene immediately and could not prevent the shooter from entering and basically sacrificed those kids by waiting 40 minutes for someone else to deal with it.
More cops is not the answer as it is already proven in this scenario (among others) to not work, because cops are humans that don't want to die. That leaves not having weapons available and other options.

I agree with you but also want to emphasize how crazy it is that people are seriously considering putting an additional 1-5 vets/cops at the 100k public schools in the country.

I agree, it's just that 5 guards * 50000 avg salary * 100000 public schools and we would still have all the gun problems we have now but spend a lot more and traumatize more kids and teachers by turning schools into prisons. What is not to love about protecting the right for people to have dangerous toys?

For a combat role yes
We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

There are these true believers that think we're safer with more guns though. And the vets make shitty cops anyway.

[schuss]

Also - to be clear, I'd be fine with some of the discussions of mental health if it was coupled to meaningful funding and support. It isn't. It's just blame. Those pointing to disturbed individuals are doing absolutely nothing to understand or alleviate that problem. Until they do, call them out on their bullshit.
Oh sorry, "thoughts and prayers"

[Bobby Stainless]

Bottom line, as always, is a complete shift in gun regulation (ultra-strict like other countries have--countries that never, ever have these problems) will fix all of this. The rest is just bullshit the gun people have used to distract from what needs to be done--getting rid of most of these guns. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of the problem. It really is that simple, as other countries have shown us. There's nothing so special about us that would make us the exception. Who gives a fuck what 18th century slave owners wrote down (putting aside the misreading of the amendment, which is very clear that the 'right' only applies for the purposes of maintaining a military).

Good luck with that.

[Bobby Stainless]

And the vets make shitty cops anyway.

Why?

Are we all cop and vet haters here too? Defund the police and all?

Grow up kids.

[mcphee]

Bunch of states let local and state law enforcement agencies resell confiscated firearms. That needs to stop yesterday.

[The AD]

We as a society shouldn’t be aspiring to weaponizing society, that just takes us further down a road none of us want to be on

Agree 100%. I don't see any possible way that more guns and more armed people is the answer.

[Bobby Stainless]

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

[SumJongGuy]

99% of my personal experience post SCOTUS Heller tells me that the myth that "an armed society is a polite society" is totally busted. Ya sure, some people definitely do walk away from a confrontation and don't escalate for fear of having to use the gun they are packing.. But, far more are more likely to get on your face and escalate, especially road rage when they know pulling a gun is an option when things start to go south over trivial bullshit..

[Dexter Rutecki]

Why?

Are we all cop and vet haters here too?

No, but OTOH some of us are not retarded.

[The AD]

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

It's not just about the sheer number, though. It's about the types of guns allowed by private citizens, the capacity of magazines allowed, and where and how those guns can be utilized.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Yup, it could never work because...it could never work. Because someone said so. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, including in this country (in NYC, for example--look what strict gun laws and enforcement and interdiction of guns from the stupid states accomplished here). Grow up, amirite Stainless?

[Bobby Stainless]

Someone needs to tell these people they are fucking stupid.

https://news.yahoo.com/manatee-schoo...194554275.html

Verdecia isn’t there to get to know the kids, break up fights or do the typical community-policing that school resource officers typically do, said MSA Principal Bill Jones.Verdecia has one job: Stop an active shooter.
Jones said if a shooter arrived at the campus, they would most likely be carrying a rifle, wearing body armor and looking to inflict as much carnage as quickly as possible. He said even though the Palmetto Police Department will respond, he needs someone on scene who can return force with force.

[Bobby Stainless]

(in NYC, for example--look what strict gun laws and enforcement and interdiction of guns from the stupid states accomplished here)?

Good point.

A suspect in the fatal shooting of a Goldman Sachs employee in what police say was an unprovoked attack on a New York City subway train was in custody Tuesday.

https://news.yahoo.com/suspect-fatal...175634192.html

[::: :::]

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

It’s called a “goal”

We need goals to keep us focused on what is important and why

So that we don’t get lost in the forest looking at trees

It’s not ego
Smart societies use strategic AND tactical thinking, not one or the other

[dunfree]

Im not sure many of you can grasp the amount of firearms that are in circulation. The cat is out of the bag.

Australia is the size of NYC. Comparing the two is fool's errand. New Zealand is even smaller.

Hundreds of thousands produced daily. I would look for alternative routes than the ol "Get rid of guns" schtick. It might do wonders for you ego, but it does little else.

Bobby stupid is bad with numbers and unable to grasp that there’s a lot of people that don’t own any guns and don’t want to.

[leroy jenkins]

This, and all the other bullshit distraction attempts about mental health being a priority, blah blah. Bottom line, as always, is a complete shift in gun regulation (ultra-strict like other countries have--countries that never, ever have these problems) will fix all of this. The rest is just bullshit the gun people have used to distract from what needs to be done--getting rid of most of these guns. Get rid of the guns and you get rid of the problem. It really is that simple, as other countries have shown us. There's nothing so special about us that would make us the exception. Who gives a fuck what 18th century slave owners wrote down (putting aside the misreading of the amendment, which is very clear that the 'right' only applies for the purposes of maintaining a military).

Sickening what people are willing to accept and advocate for.

You're not going to be able to overturn the 2nd. If you want gun law reform, you're going to have to start thinking about what gun control you can support, that might actually help things, that you can also get the majority of gun owners to support as well.

So registries and de facto registries are off the table you don't get the support for that.

You're going to have to abandon your favorite most emotionally gratifying ideas and embrace finding common ground with those you disagree with. This isn't a moral commandment its just a practical reality.

Demonizing gun owners and dismissing their values as insanity or selfishness are not going to get us anywhere. Making them feel scared of bans is just going to make them buy more guns and ammo. Keep butting your heads against a brick wall if you want, it won't lead to any sollutions but it at least creates a target to vent blame and anger on.

[ex-powderbroker]

Good point.



https://news.yahoo.com/suspect-fatal...175634192.html

wow, a murder in a city of ten million. this comes nowhere close to explaining how the murder rate in ny is 1/6 that of texas, and if chicago was a state it would be slotted between alabama and louisiana for firearm mortality per 100k.

[Bobby Stainless]

Bobby stupid is bad with numbers and unable to grasp that there’s a lot of people that don’t own any guns and don’t want to.

About half.

[mcphee]

“Nothing can be done because I’m not willing to make a personal sacrifice”

“The problem is too big. Therefore, nothing can be done.”

“Trying is the first step towards failure”

“More cops to hem and haw for an hour over what to do while kids are being slaughtered”