If only there was something we could do...

[LongShortLong]

Eh, I feel that's tied to a larger deal of cops not wanting oversight, then refusing to do their jobs when they get a whiff of having to be accountable.
That said - definitely a lot wrong with a lot of both policing and prosecutions for years. I still remember my wife being held up at gunpoint and SF police not even returning calls when were able to tie craigslist posts to her work phone call records (they stole her work cell)

I'd blame that more on the elected officials, and by proxy SF residents. Awhile back one of their mayors responding to a raft of cellphone thefts on MUNI said if you don't want your phone stolen, don't have it in your hand. (I interpreted this as "don't visit SF")

There seems to be a notion that if a theft is only for a small amount, there isn't much harm done to society. My take is if someone's stealing cellphones every day, that's >100k in direct losses per year. Add in missed appointments, hassle to replace, and psychological damage... Lock the thieves away and lose the keys - it's way cheaper and makes a better society.

[DBdude]

dude. You are arguing with yourself - And

it's not about 'being paid well enough... '
one takes the job, one needs to attempt to do the job.
If we are now a society. where law enforcement are not responsible to respond when a killer is killing, Who (are) you going to call ?

( I would read the nytimes about a court decision, but of course it's paywalled )
- And it's Not about a court decision, it's about that "social contract" -

' protecting anyone' ? "meh"
... wear the badge, wear the gun... do the job.
Can't do the job ? Find different Work.

it's not about being paid enough / it's part of the job.
Want better PersonalProtectiveEquipment ? Go buy it And get reimbursed --
( the argument about 'bigger / better' gun is junk.
at that point, it is about critical, tactical decision-making. )

one stands for a photo. with the s.w.a.t. team, one has a Responsibility.

"not paid enough" is bull*


skiJ

I have always wondered if you can read

police are under no obligation to put themselves at risk. they are trained not to put them selves at risk

my step dad is a former nyc cop who left a banking job in the sixties. he serverd in korea and left banking for a more secure job working for the city as a cop

he became and undercover detective and then worked in the state prison system as an administrator where he got is bachelor degree

cop = job
cop <> hero

i have another cop in the family that did put it on the line going into an airplane that went into the water in NY as a port authority cop. The shooting at Robb Elementary proves my point. Nobody will be disciplined. A career or two may be over, but they will retire comfortably somewhere.

[skiJ]

I agree with your point SJG. But legally speaking that's not true:

“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”

The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,”

^

[skiJ]

I have always wondered if you can read

police are under no obligation to put themselves at risk.

my step dad is a former nyc cop who left a banking job in the sixties. he serverd in korea and left banking for a more secure job working for the city as a cop

he became and undercover detective and then worked in the state prison system as an administrator where he got is bachelor degree

cop = job
cop <> hero

i have another cop in the family that did put it on the line going into an airplane that went into the water in NY as a port authority cop.

. . .

[k2skier112]

What level is a standard police vest?

the system is fuct and you're arguing semantics

[DBdude]

exactly

laughing my ass off

[k2skier112]

[schuss]

I'd blame that more on the elected officials, and by proxy SF residents. Awhile back one of their mayors responding to a raft of cellphone thefts on MUNI said if you don't want your phone stolen, don't have it in your hand. (I interpreted this as "don't visit SF")

There seems to be a notion that if a theft is only for a small amount, there isn't much harm done to society. My take is if someone's stealing cellphones every day, that's >100k in direct losses per year. Add in missed appointments, hassle to replace, and psychological damage... Lock the thieves away and lose the keys - it's way cheaper and makes a better society.

A police force that doesn't even call people back when they were victims of an armed robbery is a failed force. Seriously. I can't imagine the contortions you have to go through to get to "no way is that the police's fault".
If they did their best and prosecutor declined - sure. This is not even trying, not to mention the racist stuff they said to my wife when she noted it was a black guy and a white guy.
"Are you sure? They don't usually work together." It was 2012.

[MultiVerse]

JFC I can’t understand your rant…. Serious question: Have you ever seen a human being who has been shot IRL?

Yes I have. And my point is simple: complaining about gun violence is unlikely to persuade the public and therefore law makers to change the law in the direction of stricter gun control unless it includes more enforcement, more law enforcement. We the public might decide that's a bad tradeoff but if you read between the lines that's what people, the public, really thinks:

Still, I'm not going to give mine up unless we all give all of them up together.

[dunfree]

the system is fuct and you're arguing semantics

semantics requires Bobby to know what he’s talking about. He’s a wumao shitting in the thread who thinks he bought knowledge with his blued buttplugs

[skiJ]

DB -

Thank you for joining the conversation -

last Wednesday, I wrote, emergency services ( including law enforcement ) are trained not to put themselves in harm's way.

another insisted, training is to rush an active shooter --

your family members in police services and ( prison) is noted
( I cannot relate to nyc. I had plenty to cope with with young friend in minneapolis in 2020 ( nightly violence after GeorgeFloyd was killed. ))

regarding Uvalde.
19 children were murdered. That's the loss --

That you think it is about the police and are laughing speaks volumes about You.

I realize a lot of guys are just here for an entertaining diversion ;
for some of us, this "community" means more than that.


it's pretty-clear I can read, even if I abuse a bunch of rules about writing in my posts -
That you start your post with an attempted insult... ( see my comment above about it reflecting on You. )

Uvalde is about 21 murders, DB -

but you can laugh and support the police.
Nice, DB --


skiJ

[jackstraw]

Australia’s pop is 3x NYC

Non sequitur, nevertheless

By that logic…for every AUS-sized partition in the US we can remove 650k guns?
US pop / AUS pop = 350M / 25M = 14 AUS inside of the US.
So, concurrently in 14 partitions of the US over 4mos, we could remove 9.1M firearms (14 * 650k). —> So, 27.3M per yr [3 * 9.1M].

If we truly have 400M firearms currently, it would take 14yrs to clear that stock at the rate of AUS.

Not impossible, & god knows we could bring more resources to bear in the effort since US GDP is 20x that of AUS

After a few tequila drinks and a gummy the first thing that jumped into my head reading bobbies post was economies of scale. Thanks for doing the math. And yes, if we really wanted this done it would be quicker. Maybe posting the pictures would do it...idk. I wouldn't look because I don't need to be convinced.

[powdrhound]

I read that the Australian government removed 650,000 guns during their round up.

That's .165% of the guns in the United States.

I think they said it took 4 months. That means it would take 205 years if scaled to the US.

Im not sure the Australian model is a viable method to point to.

No to mention, Australia's population is about the same as NYC.

Your assumptions make for bad math.

[bennymac]

This is what it’s like arguing with the anti gun control crowd - including posters in here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreak...g_double_down/

[Ted Striker]

"Are you sure? They don't usually work together." It was 2012.

To be fair, the black guy was Robert Downey Jr

[MagnificentUnicorn]

To be fair, they're not paid well enough to deal with maniacs with AR15s in body armor much better than theirs.. Those .223 rounds go right through standard police vests. That doesn't excuse them murdering unarmed young black men though...

Cops are the ones who should be screaming loudest to stop selling these weapons designed for mayhem to the general public..

Okay, I’m not on the gun folks side but you’ve said this more than once. The police are not outgunned or wearing lesser armor than the bad guys. The standard rifle for most police is the AR 15 or even the M4 in some cases. They use level III, or better, armor for SWAT and are allowed to use most any armor. So stop this. It’s not a talking point


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[DBdude]

DB -

Thank you for joining the conversation -

last Wednesday, I wrote, emergency services ( including law enforcement ) are trained not to put themselves in harm's way.

another insisted, training is to rush an active shooter --

your family members in police services and ( prison) is noted
( I cannot relate to nyc. I had plenty to cope with with young friend in minneapolis in 2020 ( nightly violence after GeorgeFloyd was killed. ))

regarding Alvarde.
19 children were murdered. That's the loss --

That you think it is about the police and are laughing speaks volumes about You.

I realize a lot of guys are just here for an entertaining diversion ;
for some of us, this "community" means more than that.


it's pretty-clear I can read, even if I abuse a bunch of rules about writing in my posts -
That you start your post with an attempted insult... ( see my comment above about it reflecting on You. )

Alvarde is about 21 murders, DB -

but you can laugh and support the police.
Nice, DB --


skiJ

their training is to rush an active shooter. that's why there is such an uproar. the cops suck - their culture is their safety first and protocol in a school shooting is rush the shooter

we all know what those cops did

cops even call it being on the job... the ulvade cops failed. it's not acceptable. policing needs to change in this country

i dont support the police. since returning to the people republic of vermont I have asked several officers of the law for their business cards and had the pleasure of discussing my interactions with said officer with their boss.

I pay my taxes and vote

[uglymoney]

Probably been posted here but saw a tweet today that pointed out the NRA is happy with us blaming the cops and taking the heat off of easy access to the assault rifle.

Nobody should have to rush a suicidal 18 yo with an assault rifle.

But yeah. If our so called law enforcement officers are too cowed to rush this kind of firepower, why are these so weapons easy to obtain.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

[DBdude]

the kids were talking to the cops on their cells, the police told them to yell out, when they did the kids where shot

the ineptitude of the cops and the miss information they gave is stunning

[uglymoney]

This incident makes it so clear how dysfunctional we have become as a society on so many levels.

The guns, the repressive nature of cop culture, the industrialization of law enforcement, the repressed underclass.

Where do we focus our outrage?

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using Tapatalk

[bennymac]

big pharma according to the gun scholars in here

[SumJongGuy]

Okay, I’m not on the gun folks side but you’ve said this more than once. The police are not outgunned or wearing lesser armor than the bad guys. The standard rifle for most police is the AR 15 or even the M4 in some cases. They use level III, or better, armor for SWAT and are allowed to use most any armor. So stop this. It’s not a talking point


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Just going by stuff I've read.. Just said their vests aren't full body armor plated. They'd be way hotter and heavier. Now, SWAT may have full plated, but doubt that little town has them.

Matt P.
, Gun owner, engaged in state/national gun policies and politics, instructor/FFL03
Answered Mar 15, 2018 · Upvoted by
Andy Duffell
, ex-forces armourer
Standard police body armor is NIJ Type IIa or IIIa soft armor. Both are rated to stop standard and magnum pistol rounds. Centerfire rifle rounds like .223 will go through either type of armor like it wasn’t there.

Only Type III or IV hard armor is rated to stop .223/5.56mm rounds from any rifle including the AR-15.

So no, standard police body armor will not stop a bullet from an AR-15. It isn’t designed to.
https://www.quora.com/Would-a-standa...an-AR-15-rifle

Anybody got links saying regular cops do wear full plated armor? I don't think they do..

[LongShortLong]

Seriously. I can't imagine the contortions you have to go through to get to "no way is that the police's fault".

You're projecting. I agree that criminals should be locked up. And all the steps leading to that should be performed (except the crime)

[jackattack]

Just going by stuff I've read.. Just said their vests aren't full body armor plated. They'd be way hotter and heavier. Now, SWAT may have full plated, but doubt that little town has them.

In Texas, USA????

[SumJongGuy]

In Texas, USA????

I saw that already. Still doesn't mean the vests they have stop .223s out of AR15s. Looked like they weren't too sure about that either..

Anybody here ever see a vest, any vest stop a high velocity .223 round out of an AR15 at close range? I'm skeptical that's even possible..