If only there was something we could do...

[cinnepa]

^^^ yup, gotta start somewhere - and now.

[schuss]

Yep, agreed.

Also - not making perfect comments on things should not equal "oh well, don't do anything/don't support them". Perfect being the enemy of good or better is part of what got us here. Light a fire under the asses of all the obstructionists who let us get here or kick them out of office.
There's some correlations here for anyone with a few brain cells to rub together looking to make them: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...ty/firearm.htm

[ex-powderbroker]

Whatever they do should also repeal the ban on studying weapons. It is pure stupidity and was a bad compromise to make. If the AR ban was going to expire, so should of the ban on coming up with a shared reality based on facts. Ideology can't be allowed to trample the scientific method forever. We should also be allowed as a country to admit when we got things wrong and to try and do better. Since we are coming up with lists, they should also take bits and pieces from all of them and move. The gun issue is not just a school shooting issue, it's also a suicide and homicide issue and they need to make some progress in all areas otherwise a lot of people are going to still say "SEE, LAWS DON'T DO ANYTHING".

[ill-advised strategy]

So one Stabby McStabberpants is able to kill a lot of people. Versus how many mass shootings to mass stabbings?

One dude was crazy good with a knife or sword or whatever whereas 100s of average losers buy a gun and commit mass shootings.

Don’t forget bombs.

Seems like we should work really hard on both making it harder for unhinged people to do damage and restructuring our society so fewer people are unhinged. It’s not an either/or kind of problem.

[John_B]

Yep, seems like a reasonable list of points from Gretch. I'd be on board. Dunfree try to take a deep breath every once in a while.

[ill-advised strategy]

And the whole party line about mental health seems to disregard the elephant in the room: millions of lucid reasonable people have legitimate reason to be angry and hopeless because our economic model commodifies them and corrals them into virtual human feedlots and slaughterhouses.

[ill-advised strategy]

It’s not a hard concept for me to formulate while I spend 40 hours a week shuttling miserable people from public housing and trailer parks to shit jobs and back.

[skaredshtles]

Yep, seems like a reasonable list of points from Gretch. I'd be on board.

You gotta vote for people who are going to support those points, though... and I'm not convinced that the electorate is going to do that any time soon.

[::: :::]

After a few recent conversations with gun rights enthusiasts, my impression is that there will be no change without a super majority. And, when that happens, there is a certain population who will get violent to oppose the “tyranny” of any changes.

I asked what’s the difference between majority rule and tyranny when it comes to a repeal of the 2nd. The answer is that is fighting time.

They back the exaggeration & ridiculous rationales on the hard stop of a right is incontrovertible & “god given”.

There is no reasonable regulation of firearms among the believers. None.
And yet they get offended when you point out the obvious indifference of that position to the killing of children, old people & bystanders, not to mention suicides.



If it’s the people and not the gun, why in fuck would you ever allow people unregulated access to guns?

[::: :::]

Next steps are:
1) Super majority
2) Allow public health research
3) Publish the results of that research & lobby the public with targeted achievable changes to gun regs to improve safety w/ a sunset clause to force reconsideration of goals & strategies
4) Enact those regulations; enforce them & measure the public health results over 12yrs
5) Reassess & reset
Hopefully, see the same graph as the car safety over time graph

[skaredshtles]

Next steps are:
1) Super majority
2) Allow public health research
3) Publish the results of that research & lobby the public with targeted achievable changes to gun regs to improve safety w/ a sunset clause to force reconsideration of goals & strategies
4) Enact those regulations; enforce them & measure the public health results over 12yrs
5) Reassess & reset
Hopefully, see the same graph as the car safety over time graph

Or... you, know, we could continue to elect:

[ill-advised strategy]

After a few recent conversations with gun rights enthusiasts, my impression is that there will be no change without a super majority. And, when that happens, there is a certain population who will get violent to oppose the “tyranny” of any changes.

I asked what’s the difference between majority rule and tyranny when it comes to a repeal of the 2nd. The answer is that is fighting time.

They back the exaggeration & ridiculous rationales on the hard stop of a right is incontrovertible & “god given”.

There is no reasonable regulation of firearms among the believers. None.
And yet they get offended when you point out the obvious indifference of that position to the killing of children, old people & bystanders, not to mention suicides.



If it’s the people and not the gun, why in fuck would you ever allow people unregulated access to guns?

Their counter is straightforward: there are sketchy people with guns so I need guns to defend myself. Chicken and egg thing

[Cisco Kid]

My counter to that counter is:
You have guns. You're own problem is solved. Sit down, shut up.

Yeah, I know, too late for any logic.

[::: :::]

Or... you, know, we could continue to elect:

is that an ad for safe storage by responsible gun owners of america?

[Bunion 2020]

Don't worry the safeties are on.

[::: :::]

Next steps are:
1) Super majority
2) Allow public health research
3) Publish the results of that research & lobby the public with targeted achievable changes to gun regs to improve safety w/ a sunset clause to force reconsideration of goals & strategies
4) Enact those regulations; enforce them & measure the public health results over 12yrs
5) Reassess & reset
Hopefully, see the same graph as the car safety over time graph

actually i'm reconsidering this

my proposal is to allow public health research & don't ask for anything more
that's it
it will take a few years to get the added data & analysis
then, with proper research in hand from actual experts, we propose targeted nationwide regulations to rein in the carnage & maybe even crime too
[the gun lobby will probably try to game the effort and publish bullshit, but that is going on anyway...we did this already with big tobacco]

it seems like step one should be less contentious than actually placing limitations on gun access (yes, the zealots will whatabout or gaslight the lobby with slippery slope bs, but that's where we are now...)

then, when there's more substantive targeted proposals, it will be harder to defend not doing anything even tho the same arguments will be trotted out

the goal would be that to get the support of middle ground people who are willing to concede reasonable regulation to improve public safety & maintain reasonable access

and then, with public support, progress can be made beyond our currently degrading public safety issues

[schuss]

Don't worry the safeties are on.

Knowing her, the bullets are probably in backwards.

[::: :::]

Their counter is straightforward: there are sketchy people with guns so I need guns to defend myself. Chicken and egg thing

the counter is irrelevant at this point, because there isn't a conversation when only one side is concerned
that much is clear from the last 30years

the position is there is no "reasonable" gun control; there is nowhere to go from there

more guns = more gun violence, we have this data now

[Ted Striker]

I think most gun owners want some common sense gun laws. Personally I don’t hear many common sense ideas.

Agree. Like most things in this country, a militant minority with the help of a massive industry lobby got us here.

I just hear non stop republican shaming and see morons handing eachother medals for moral supremacy. And when you put half the population in that box you immediately create stubbornness. If you want them to pressure their representatives that’s never going to work.

Ok, but it literally is the Republicans' fault. Like I mentioned upthread, almost every single Republican Senator voted in favor of Clinton's crime bill that included the AWB. These days, they are party line against any gun control period. And that alone is why nothing will happen.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Agree. Like most things in this country, a militant minority with the help of a massive industry lobby got us here.

Ok, but it literally is the Republicans' fault. Like I mentioned upthread, almost every single Republican Senator voted in favor of Clinton's crime bill that included the AWB. These days, they are party line against any gun control period. And that alone is why nothing will happen.

What's the approach to dealing with republicans rather than "shaming" them like CE is pointing out? shouldn't we all feel ashamed as Americans for the ridiculous amount of gun violence we live with as a society? And I don't hear the republicans throwing out may solutions..it's all "mental health" but then no programs or funding to address it.

[::: :::]

What's the approach to dealing with republicans rather than "shaming" them like CE is pointing out? shouldn't we all feel ashamed as Americans for the ridiculous amount of gun violence we live with as a society? And I don't hear the republicans throwing out may solutions..it's all "mental health" but then no programs or funding to address it.

Overwhelm them with research data in 4yrs per the research allowance first idea
At that point, it will be clear whether widespread access in the name of defensive use is legitimately more useful than the attendant negligence to seems to go with more guns.
Prove what is currently just a discussion point one way or the other. Use that finding to move the needle.
Study it & measure it
And, if it measures out, then we have an answer to inform the Ban The Gunz crowd too.

[Adolf Allerbush]

Overwhelm them with research data in 4yrs per the research allowance first idea
At that point, it will be clear whether widespread access in the name of defensive use is legitimately more useful than the attendant negligence to seems to go with more guns.
Prove what is currently just a discussion point one way or the other. Use that finding to move the needle.
Study it & measure it
And, if it measures out, then we have an answer to inform the Ban The Gunz crowd too.

I like it. CE, what's wrong with this proposal?

[XXX-er]

The canadian gov announced more restrictive hand gun laws so everybody went to the gun shops and bought ALL the handguns

[Ted Striker]

What's the approach to dealing with republicans rather than "shaming" them like CE is pointing out? shouldn't we all feel ashamed as Americans for the ridiculous amount of gun violence we live with as a society? And I don't hear the republicans throwing out may solutions..it's all "mental health" but then no programs or funding to address it.

I know cono was talking about voters, but I'm talking about politicians. The Republican Party is a gun cult. Anyone who advocates for gun control can't get through the primary level. So the R voter is always voting against gun control regardless of their personal stance on the subject (which is of course, by design).

As for shaming the snowflakes, it's a case of they can't take it, but sure can dish it out. A woman is either "pro life" or a baby murderer? Obama is a Muslim from Kenya? Mexicans are "drug dealers and rapists"? Owning the libs is the unofficial party slogan. Fuck their feelings.

[californiagrown]

Overwhelm them with research data in 4yrs per the research allowance first idea
At that point, it will be clear whether widespread access in the name of defensive use is legitimately more useful than the attendant negligence to seems to go with more guns.
Prove what is currently just a discussion point one way or the other. Use that finding to move the needle.
Study it & measure it
And, if it measures out, then we have an answer to inform the Ban The Gunz crowd too.

Are you high. You want to overwhelm the gun nut right wingers with... research, studies, statistics and science?


how'd that work out with oh, say, covid, global warming, pedo pizza parlors, etc?