If only there was something we could do...

[ex-powderbroker]

exactly. Just spent the last hour with my middle schooler as he wanted to review all possible intruder scenarios at his school and what he’d do. Many of his classes have exit doors nearby and that’s the best way to get out of the school. He slept on my bedroom floor last night. He probably won’t sleep tonight as he overthinks all his scenarios.

truly awful in every way.

[anotherVTskibum]

You can make the sane argument about gun owners. Many if not most gun deaths and gun accidents are a result of improperly stored, improperly handled guns.

Can you back that claim up? I didn't think the rate of accidental death due to mishandling was all that high (though admittedly not zero), and "improperly stored" becomes really vague when trying to create a broad standard. Reasonable storage is going to look really different for a single guy in an off grid cabin in Montana than a guy with four kids between 4 and 14 in a low rent neighborhood in a big city.

I have zero problem with creating a presumption of guilt of improper storage/control when someone else uses your firearm in a crime, though, or is stopped while attempting to do so. As long as there's a clear standard to meet to disprove that assumption, the idea that you need to take responsibility for your property being misused isn't foreign. Leave the keys in your convertible and see how that goes with the neighbor's kid takes it for a joyride that doesn't end well.

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[AK47bp]

exactly. Just spent the last hour with my middle schooler as he wanted to review all possible intruder scenarios at his school and what he’d do. Many of his classes have exit doors nearby and that’s the best way to get out of the school. He slept on my bedroom floor last night. He probably won’t sleep tonight as he overthinks all his scenarios. And worries about his teachers who he thinks aren’t fast enough runners. And then he asked what about the office people? He’s a worrier and it sucks all around.

Ugh. That’s terrible. Sorry.


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[MultiVerse]

Can you back that claim up? I didn't think the rate of accidental death due to mishandling was all that high (though admittedly not zero), and "improperly stored" becomes really vague when trying to create a broad standard. Reasonable storage is going to look really different for a single guy in an off grid cabin in Montana than a guy with four kids between 4 and 14 in a low rent neighborhood in a big city.

I have zero problem with creating a presumption of guilt of improper storage/control when someone else uses your firearm in a crime, though, or is stopped while attempting to do so. As long as there's a clear standard to meet to disprove that assumption, the idea that you need to take responsibility for your property being misused isn't foreign. Leave the keys in your convertible and see how that goes with the neighbor's kid takes it for a joyride that doesn't end well.

A University of Pittsburgh study suggests in approximately 8 out of 10 cases involving guns, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but was in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else.

~80% of the time the gun belonged to someone else, ~18% of the time the gun belonged to the legal owner, the remainder were unknown. Between 15%-and-30% of the time the gun was stolen. More than 40% of the stolen guns were unreported and the legal owner only knew the gun was missing after being contacted by police. For about ~60% of the recovered guns, the legal owner was unable to identify the place where they lost the gun.

On the accidental side of the ledger, unintentional firearm discharge accounts for about 40% of gun injuries and about 2% of all gun deaths.

[CarlMega]

the closest are the Falklands and Yemen (so, a former war zone with a negligible population at the ass end of the world and a war zone). And they are half of the us.

federal gun “background checks” are a joke

Thanks. We are unique.

Like everyone else here I don't have a well thought out solution, just observations. We can call it unaddressed mental health issues, but there is an emptiness in the soul of America. Desperate people reaching for a gun for their answer... violence first vs. avoid at all costs. It's sickening, sad and shameful. Ultimately, this is what must be reckoned with.

Read that NYT opinion piece. I'm doubtful of bans too, that's swinging for the fences. But I do think we can manage access/availability much better than we do, ideally fewer desperate people getting firearms quickly or amassing massive arsenals.

I've purchased fire arms in two different states. One state - I waited six months, had a 'license to purchase (up to 3)', a very thorough check, provided references who were called and something called a firearms ID card. The other state, I filled out a basic form waited about 10 minutes and was casually handed a weapon, a box of ammo and walked thru a big box store without a chaperone. The process between the two, left an impression. There was a seriousness in the first state that made a shift in how I internalized it: not a toy, responsibility. The more lenient state - LOLOLOL party time! Let's throw some lead.

Anyway - I think there's value in getting rid of the culturally/institutionally-supported cavalier and casual mindset and having some gravity and responsibility baked into the process.

I support a built in delay before they hand your gun
I believe everyone should apply and undergo a legitimate background check - no exceptions, standardized
I think each application should have a limit on how many weapon purchases that app approval is good for
I think there should be a license
I think liability insurance makes sense
I'm comfortable with a registry
I'd support course / training

I know the 2A purists are piping hot mad at every one of those but, for me, that's the well-regulated part. And in light of our gun violence problem, I think these types of changes would move the needle. And even with fascist power hungry weirdos potentially ready to seize government control, I'd still rather address the problem we have now vs. the mythology of maybe some rogue government using confiscation lists to coalesce power.

[anotherVTskibum]

A University of Pittsburgh study suggests in approximately 8 out of 10 cases involving guns, the perpetrator was not a lawful gun owner but was in illegal possession of a weapon that belonged to someone else.

~80% of the time the gun belonged to someone else, ~18% of the time the gun belonged to the legal owner, the remainder were unknown. Between 15%-and-30% of the time the gun was stolen. More than 40% of the stolen guns were unreported and the legal owner only knew the gun was missing after being contacted by police.

That 80% stat is tough to interpret without knowing how many were stolen from reasonably secure storage (eg forcibly breaking and entering, forcing open a trunk or console after stealing a car) vs not so much (grabbed from plain sight in an unlocked car, etc).

The 40% number makes me hope that a nontrivial number of cases involve characters involved in other illegal activity or are otherwise reticent to report, rather then just people who aren't keeping track. But the number in the latter category is probably still terrifying.

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Edit: misread that, probably should stop trying to follow this thread after midnight. So are they saying that 80% less 30% stolen means that 50% were missed with the owners permission?

[altacoup]

Keep making excuses. Nothing is perfect but doing nothing is fucked.
100 cops outside the school. 100 armed professionals and they still hesitated to storm the school.


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[MultiVerse]

Edit: misread that, probably should stop trying to follow this thread after midnight. So are they saying that 80% less 30% stolen means that 50% were missed with the owners permission?

Yeah either misplaced,* stolen outright, or with the owners permission.

Misplaced means the owners did not know how they lost possession of their firearm ~60%. According to the study a precise category breakdown is tricky because "Currently there is no way to track firearms from a legal purchase into hands that do not have legal ownership, even through official police data. A large number of guns recovered are taken from persons who are not the lawful owner of the gun. In the majority of cases, the guns were privately owned, as opposed to being traced back to a dealer. "

[hutash]

School is mandated by the government for children to attend.

Grocery stores, churches, synagogues, etc are optional.


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You obviously missed the point

[skiJ]

It's remarkable how fast the "too many doors" talking point spread. I'm seeing it everywhere. Fewer entrances kinda seems like it might make sense but fewer exits sounds like a uniquely horrible idea.

restricted access means fewer, monitored entry(s) - other 'entries (of convenience) ' become emergency Only exits ( by Safety (Fire) code, those Exits Must be available. )but they don't have to be available as Entrances.

This is Not that hard
( the hard part is going to get people to not object to their (community's) School's architecture being altered
( Because it will not be attractive or historic )


it's Not too many doors.
it is too many Entry points ! !!


tj

[J. Barron DeJong]

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/stat...d3y8sujATnOUrw

[hutash]

Well, making the age to purchase 21 instead of 18 would have at least make it less convenient for both Buffalo and Texas shooters. That's a state level decision.

Apparently it is not. CAhad a 21 li.it on something, don't remember exactly, but the SC just struck it down, so it is back to 18.

[jfost]

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/stat...d3y8sujATnOUrw

Can anyone think of a reason why police wouldn’t want a group of unidentified hysterical parents rushing in to an evolving active shooter scenario?!?

[abraham]

Can anyone think of a reason why police wouldn’t want a group of unidentified hysterical parents rushing in to an evolving active shooter scenario?!?

EJ Bradford?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Can anyone think of a reason why police wouldn’t want a group of unidentified hysterical parents rushing in to an evolving active shooter scenario?!?

Yeah, of course parents shouldn’t be doing that, BECAUSE IT’S THE FUCKING JOB OF THE POLICE!

[BobMc]

I would've thought, but a guy I know from motorcycling--who, for what it's worth, is decidedly not a GOP member had an issue with his primary duck gun (not even an AR) and couldn't get the parts he needed until after his long-planned trip was underway. He happened to have a backup gun, but he made a pretty good case in terms of significant waiting periods presenting very real issues for uses (hunting) that most people don't take issue with.

Another guy I know went to do a final sight in the day before leaving for deer camp and realized the powered scope on his AR wasn't working (which he had been planning to use as his deer rifle, with an appropriate magazine). Again, he happened to have another rifle that was good to go, but if he hadn't and couldn't get the AR scope going, being able to walk into an outdoors store in just-West-of-nowhere and walk out with a functional rifle would've saved the trip.

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Really? Your “friend” had a shotgun that “broke” and ruined his hunt? Then another friend had a “powered” scope that wouldn’t “work” and he couldn’t hunt deer.

Maybe you should find friends that really know how guns work. Nobody is putting waiting periods on firearm parts. If your friend is humping an AR around the woods with a lighted reticle optic perhaps he should learn to shoot?

Seriously, it sounds like you really don’t have a clue. I own quite a few guns, including a couple of AR’s, I’m at that point where I’m getting fine with them going away.

[The AD]

I apologize if this has been mentioned. Hard to keep up:

UVALDE, Texas — The gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers in a rural Texas elementary school on Tuesday entered the building despite being confronted by an armed school security officer, then wounded two responding police officers and engaged in a standoff inside the school for over an hour, state police officials said.

(emphasis mine)

[Pow4Brains]

Make a musket or blunderbuss the only legal powder filled weapons to own will solve this.


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[neufox47]

I would've thought, but a guy I know from motorcycling--who, for what it's worth, is decidedly not a GOP member had an issue with his primary duck gun (not even an AR) and couldn't get the parts he needed until after his long-planned trip was underway. He happened to have a backup gun, but he made a pretty good case in terms of significant waiting periods presenting very real issues for uses (hunting) that most people don't take issue with.

Another guy I know went to do a final sight in the day before leaving for deer camp and realized the powered scope on his AR wasn't working (which he had been planning to use as his deer rifle, with an appropriate magazine). Again, he happened to have another rifle that was good to go, but if he hadn't and couldn't get the AR scope going, being able to walk into an outdoors store in just-West-of-nowhere and walk out with a functional rifle would've saved the trip.

Now, if you want to talk about the right-wing resistance to using modern tech to improve background checks, that's another angle that could easily help differentiate between someone who has previously been cleared and someone who has not.

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Easy. There should be an application and skill test to own a gun. Just like to drive a car. Application process should be electronic and revokable for cause. Waiting period would be built into the application and you don’t have to wait again for a second or third gun. Require all gun transfers, even private party, to document transfer and who received the gun. Ban all high capacity magazines.

None of that will happen in the next decade.

I doubt many of these shooters would attempt it if the gun they had access to was a 5 shot rifle, shotgun or pistol.

[neufox47]

I apologize if this has been mentioned. Hard to keep up:


(emphasis mine)

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/26/11014...o-texas-school

UVALDE, Texas — Frustrated onlookers urged police officers to charge into the Texas elementary school where a gunman's rampage killed 19 children and two teachers, witnesses said Wednesday, as investigators worked to track the massacre that lasted upwards of 40 minutes and ended when the 18-year-old shooter was killed by a Border Patrol team.

"Go in there! Go in there!" nearby women shouted at the officers soon after the attack began, said Juan Carranza, 24, who saw the scene from outside his house, across the street from Robb Elementary School in the close-knit town of Uvalde. Carranza said the officers did not go in.

Javier Cazares, whose fourth grade daughter, Jacklyn Cazares, was killed in the attack, said he raced to the school when he heard about the shooting, arriving while police were still gathered outside the building.


NATIONAL
While the gun control debate amplifies, the overwhelming emotion in Uvalde is grief
Upset that police were not moving in, he raised the idea of charging into the school with several other bystanders.

"Let's just rush in because the cops aren't doing anything like they are supposed to," he said. "More could have been done."

"They were unprepared," he added.

Minutes earlier, Carranza had watched as Salvador Ramos crashed his truck into a ditch outside the school, grabbed his AR-15-style semi-automatic rifle and shot at two people outside a nearby funeral home who ran away uninjured.

Officials say he "encountered" a school district security officer outside the school, though there were conflicting reports from authorities on whether the men exchanged gunfire. After running inside, he fired on two arriving Uvalde police officers who were outside the building, said Texas Department of Public Safety spokesperson Travis Considine. The police officers were injured.

After entering the school, Ramos charged into one classroom and began to kill.

He "barricaded himself by locking the door and just started shooting children and teachers that were inside that classroom," Lt. Christopher Olivarez of the Department of Public Safety told CNN. "It just shows you the complete evil of the shooter."

All those killed were in the same classroom, he said.

Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw told reporters that 40 minutes to an hour elapsed from when Ramos opened fire on the school security officer to when the tactical team shot him, though a department spokesman said later that they could not give a solid estimate of how long the gunman was in the school or when he was killed.

"The bottom line is law enforcement was there," McCraw said. "They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom."

Meanwhile, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said the Border Patrol agents had trouble breaching the classroom door and had to get a staff member to open the room with a key. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.

Sponsor Message

Carranza said the officers should have entered the school sooner.

"There were more of them. There was just one of him," he said.

Uvalde is a largely Latino town of some 16,000 people about 75 miles (120 kilometers) from the Mexican border. Robb Elementary, which has nearly 600 students in second, third and fourth grades, is a single-story brick structure in a mostly residential neighborhood of modest homes.

Here's what Matthew McConaughey said about the shooting in his hometown
UVALDE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL SHOOTING
Here's what Matthew McConaughey said about the shooting in his hometown
Before attacking the school, Ramos shot and wounded his grandmother at the home they shared, authorities said.

Neighbor Gilbert Gallegos, 82, who lives across the street and has known the family for decades, said he was puttering in his yard when he heard the shots.

Ramos ran out the front door and across the small yard to the truck parked in front of the house. He seemed panicked, Gallegos said, and had trouble getting the truck out of park.

Then he raced away: "He spun out, I mean fast," spraying gravel in the air.

His grandmother emerged covered in blood: "She says, 'Berto, this is what he did. He shot me.'" She was hospitalized.

Gallegos, whose wife called 911, said he had heard no arguments before or after the shots, and knew of no history of bullying or abuse of Ramos, who he rarely saw.

Investigators also shed no light on Ramos' motive for the attack, which also left at least 17 people wounded. Texas Gov. Greg Abbott said Ramos, a resident of the small town about 85 miles (135 kilometers) west of San Antonio, had no known criminal or mental health history.

"We don't see a motive or catalyst right now," said McCraw of the Department of Public Safety.

Ramos legally bought the rifle and a second one like it last week, just after his birthday, authorities said.

About a half-hour before the mass shooting, Ramos sent the first of three online messages warning about his plans, Abbott said.

[neufox47]

Holy fuck multiple cops didn’t pursue him into the school! Fuck the coward cops. Fuck Texas. Fuck the argument that we just need more security.


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[bennymac]

Hmm imagine if you took away some of the bloated budget funds of this super helpful police force and put that into things like better mental health resources for teenagers.

Just need a slogan to go with this plan

[liv2ski]

Other countries have responded aggressively to their own gun problems with success. In Scotland, after a similar school shooting in 1996, lawmakers banned private ownership of handguns and automatic weapons. There haven’t been any school shootings since. And in dealing with its own gun violence problems in the 1990s, Australia took and destroyed roughly 650,000 guns from private citizens as part of a buyback program. Rates of gun homicides and suicides plummeted.

[dunfree]

restricted access means fewer, monitored entry(s) - other 'entries (of convenience) ' become emergency Only exits ( by Safety (Fire) code, those Exits Must be available. )but they don't have to be available as Entrances.

This is Not that hard
( the hard part is going to get people to not object to their (community's) School's architecture being altered
( Because it will not be attractive or historic )


it's Not too many doors.
it is too many Entry points ! !!


tj

so choke points to slaughter the kids in the morning and afternoon. Great idea. Maybe hire a few more worthless cops who’ll fail to engage a gunman, too? This sounds so useful.

I can’t believe people are serious about this. It’s utterly stupid and unserious. It’s failed with other school shootings.

[liv2ski]

Yup, unless the guns are destroyed everything else is just pissing against a hurricane