If only there was something we could do...

[mcphee]

^arent you of the same camp? “I’m not giving mine up until everyone gives theirs up”.

“Your guns first” is a tired and morally bankrupt stance from the most vapid of commentators.

[Hopeless Sinner]

I realize this is a thread basically about gun control, but in terms of availability to firearms, nothing much has changed in the last year or few months. Why then are mass shootings skyrocketing? What are the other factors? Obviously the world is a more stressful place, but what else is going on?

I get the current topic of discussion is a harm reduction approach to prevention, but what about the underlying causes of the increase? Regardless of your stance or feeling about guns they aren't the driver of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...smid=share-url

[::: :::]

I think it has more do w people than guns. Humanity is fracturing and crumbling. Disintegrating.

The news needs views. Tv won't exist in a decade. Outrage works, feed it to ppl. Stoke division.

I see a lot of despair in my travels. A lot. And I'm in white ski towns.

There are no answers. Like abortion, homelessness.. unanswerable.

I'd say the best way to solve mass shootings is to be wealthy and move away from poverty and cities.

Hope that cheers you up.

I realize this is a thread basically about gun control, but in terms of availability to firearms, nothing much has changed in the last year or few months. Why then are mass shootings skyrocketing? What are the other factors? Obviously the world is a more stressful place, but what else is going on?

I get the current topic of discussion is a harm reduction approach to prevention, but what about the underlying causes of the increase? Regardless of your stance or feeling about guns they aren't the driver of this.

maybe reconsider guns not as a driver, but an accelerant
the ease of access and ease of use make them uniquely suited to quick & substantial mayhem

For clarity for those reading along, the people who are saying "it's the guns stupid" are not pedantically thinking the firearm has achieved full consciousness/free will. They are calling out the public safety and public health problem that the lack of appropriate regulation has demonstrated them to be.

This doesn't discount the need for work to be done for poverty, public safety, public health and election access, among other topics...

[ex-powderbroker]

I realize this is a thread basically about gun control, but in terms of availability to firearms, nothing much has changed in the last year or few months. Why then are mass shootings skyrocketing? What are the other factors? Obviously the world is a more stressful place, but what else is going on?

I get the current topic of discussion is a harm reduction approach to prevention, but what about the underlying causes of the increase? Regardless of your stance or feeling about guns they aren't the driver of this.

a few recent links to illustrate that we are going the wrong way:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2022...tutional-carry

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/23/supr...led-carry.html

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...rtion-00074689

Not only are guns easier to access (NYS, DC), they are also easier to keep on you while at the same time (25 states constitutional carry) we are losing our ability to pass laws to prevent it because of the extreme hijacking of the political process by the RW who only believe in State's Rights when it is convenient for them. No circumstance loosening or tightening would see a meaningful difference over night, we are merely lobsters in a pot as the water gets ever closer to boiling over. It's also (I believe) hard to tell how much worse it really is than years past, but it is painfully obvious that the country could be substantially less violent with a few meaningful changes (pick any 3 from a list of meaningful ones and watch it happen over the course of a few years).

I was watching this YT video and the creator said something great:

They do things differently in America
They take something as simple as measuring and make it as convoluted as humanly possible
They take something as complicated as politics and make it as simple as possible, they even color-coded it
You got the blue team that gets very upset when you don't agree with everything they say and you got the red team that doesn't appear to want to do much of anything about children getting shot in the face when they're just in school trying to learn.
Having said that, they do know how to make a good hamburger.

Everyone thinks they're independent while at the same time defending "their" party, but I think he was pretty spot on about this and the video was pretty good too.



the quote is at 14:00 but then you'd miss a lot of talent.

[leroy jenkins]

For clarity for those reading along, the people who are saying "it's the guns stupid" are not pedantically thinking the firearm has achieved full consciousness/free will. They are calling out the public safety and public health problem that the lack of appropriate regulation has demonstrated them to be.

This doesn't discount the need for work to be done for poverty, public safety, public health and election access, among other topics...

Ok great, but they aren't driving the recent uptick. Like we could debate the logic of outlawing guns being a productive thing, but the situation with guns has not fundamentally changed, while the regularity of mass shootings absolutely has. What is driving that change? That seems to me to be a far more relevant question than talking about gun control. We didn't suddenly have guns in the last few years they've been here all along.

What is driving the CHANGE?

[leroy jenkins]

a few recent links to illustrate that we are going the wrong way:

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2022...tutional-carry

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/23/supr...led-carry.html

https://www.politico.com/news/2022/1...rtion-00074689

Not only are guns easier to access (NYS, DC), they are also easier to keep on you while at the same time (25 states constitutional carry) we are losing our ability to pass laws to prevent it because of the extreme hijacking of the political process by the RW who only believe in State's Rights when it is convenient for them. No circumstance loosening or tightening would see a meaningful difference over night, we are merely lobsters in a pot as the water gets ever closer to boiling over. It's also (I believe) hard to tell how much worse it really is than years past, but it is painfully obvious that the country could be substantially less violent with a few meaningful changes (pick any 3 from a list of meaningful ones and watch it happen over the course of a few years).

I was watching this YT video and the creator said something great:



Everyone thinks they're independent while at the same time defending "their" party, but I think he was pretty spot on about this and the video was pretty good too.



the quote is at 14:00 but then you'd miss a lot of talent.

That is not painfully obvious to me, or the country at large, or else we would all be in agreement about it. You don't even mention what changes.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Ok great, but they aren't driving the recent uptick. Like we could debate the logic of outlawing guns being a productive thing, but the situation with guns has not fundamentally changed, while the regularity of mass shootings absolutely has. What is driving that change? That seems to me to be a far more relevant question than talking about gun control. We didn't suddenly have guns in the last few years they've been here all along.

What is driving the CHANGE?

Nah. It’s probably a number of confounding sociological factors driving the recent increase, and there will be no decent and/or acceptable policy options to solve them. But it would certainly be possible to reduce access to guns if the motivation existed.

[anotherVTskibum]

Ok great, but they aren't driving the recent uptick. Like we could debate the logic of outlawing guns being a productive thing, but the situation with guns has not fundamentally changed, while the regularity of mass shootings absolutely has. What is driving that change? That seems to me to be a far more relevant question than talking about gun control. We didn't suddenly have guns in the last few years they've been here all along.

What is driving the CHANGE?

If you were to graph AR-style firearms owned by civilians over time, I'm pretty sure that would show a dramatic change over the past two decades. Exactly why more people choose to own those firearms now versus in 1993, when they were just as legal, might be an interesting thing to look at, but whether it's causation or correlation, there's clearly a connection between more ARs in circulation and more ARs used in shootings.

Sent using TGR Forums mobile app

[leroy jenkins]

If you were to graph AR-style firearms owned by civilians over time, I'm pretty sure that would show a dramatic change over the past two decades. Exactly why more people choose to own those firearms now versus in 1993, when they were just as legal, might be an interesting thing to look at, but whether it's causation or correlation, there's clearly a connection between more ARs in circulation and more ARs used in shootings.

Sent using TGR Forums mobile app

But not a massive massive uptick in ownership over the past three years which is when mass shootings spiked drastically. So even by your own description guns aren't the key variable.

[leroy jenkins]

Nah. It’s probably a number of confounding sociological factors driving the recent increase, and there will be no decent and/or acceptable policy options to solve them. But it would certainly be possible to reduce access to guns if the motivation existed.

Theres a lot of people who would want more than the 'maybe itll solve it or help to ban guns so why not' to accept gun bans.

[oldnew_guy]

Theres a lot of people who would want more than the 'maybe itll solve it or help to ban guns so why not' to accept gun bans.

Statista says householdgun ownership is up from 2019 at 37% to 45% today. That’s within the range of historical norm.

Chicken or egg. Can’t evaluate effectiveness without passing laws. Can’t pass laws without showing they will be effective. Result: nothing changes.

Numerous organizations have suggested comprehensive, multi faceted gun restrictions ranging from restricting access to restricting type or accessories.

Pro gun lobby has done nothing.

[JimmyCarter]

The only way to stop a good guy with a gun, is a good boy with a gun

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s/11118701002/

[ex-powderbroker]

what do you mean i didn’t mention the changes?

don’t be obtuse - i gave three examples - constitutional carry in 1/2 the nation coincides with loosening of gun laws. every republican governor is going in on the culture war to make it easier to acquire weapons at the same time the courts strike down the laws of who can carry, what can be purchased (bump stocks etc), and where they can carry. at the same time blue state regulations are being stricken down (ny, dc, california).

throw in the highly charged atmosphere, pandemics, feast or famine economies, the internet 4chan types connecting with lone wolves to encourage them and it’s a toxic stew and we are simmering, it is the only metaphor to explain why it gets worse.

if the laws were tightened, the trend would be reversed as many states and nations have shown. do you want a term paper or more links? you would have to be willfully ignorant to not connect the political environment and legislative changes since the assault weapons ban elapsed with what we have now, it’s a line straight as a bullet.

[::: :::]

But not a massive massive uptick in ownership over the past three years which is when mass shootings spiked drastically. So even by your own description guns aren't the key variable.

Last year saw record levels of inflation hit our pocketbooks, as the economy headed towards recession. But even with the economic downturn, 2022 gun sales remained at a historically high level—eclipsed only by the preceding two years.

[emphasis mine]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2023...-for-gun-sales

[SumJongGuy]

It must be relaxing mask mandates that's causing the spike in killing.. That correlates perfectly with the inflection a little over 2 years ago. Leroy has solved it!

[leroy jenkins]

what do you mean i didn’t mention the changes?

don’t be obtuse - i gave three examples - constitutional carry in 1/2 the nation coincides with loosening of gun laws. every republican governor is going in on the culture war to make it easier to acquire weapons at the same time the courts strike down the laws of who can carry, what can be purchased (bump stocks etc), and where they can carry. at the same time blue state regulations are being stricken down (ny, dc, california).

throw in the highly charged atmosphere, pandemics, feast or famine economies, the internet 4chan types connecting with lone wolves to encourage them and it’s a toxic stew and we are simmering, it is the only metaphor to explain why it gets worse.

if the laws were tightened, the trend would be reversed as many states and nations have shown. do you want a term paper or more links? you would have to be willfully ignorant to not connect the political environment and legislative changes since the assault weapons ban elapsed with what we have now, it’s a line straight as a bullet.

How does constitutional carry affect mass shootings? These are not crimes of spontaneity because people happen to have guns on them, and they are not restricted to states with constitutional carry.

That really just seems like an 'i dont like guns so I'm going to correlate things that obviously are not causal because I don't like guns' type of thing.

[leroy jenkins]

[emphasis mine]

https://www.nraila.org/articles/2023...-for-gun-sales

Surely that is not the only variable. No interest in talking about other factors?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Theres a lot of people who would want more than the 'maybe itll solve it or help to ban guns so why not' to accept gun bans.

No shit. That’s why I’m going to keep harping on it until enough of them get it through their skulls.

Every country has sociological problems, mental health issues, economic anxiety, etc. Only the US has a huge number of guns and a huge number of gun deaths.

[leroy jenkins]

Well I think many are going to continue to see that viewpoint as myopic. There is much else about America that is rotten.

[ex-powderbroker]

How does constitutional carry affect mass shootings? These are not crimes of spontaneity because people happen to have guns on them, and they are not restricted to states with constitutional carry.

That really just seems like an 'i dont like guns so I'm going to correlate things that obviously are not causal because I don't like guns' type of thing.

they are crimes of spontaneity in that

- there are no or few barriers to purchasing.
- it is permissible to carry everywhere
- if you are carrying already and pissed off, this is how you get road rage firings, or other instances that can be mass shootings provided you kill enough

with 350m people and more guns, it adds up to a rate of murder that meets that criteria every couple of days.

i don’t have to go down the road of “constitutional carry”, it is merely one of two examples i picked (the other was bump stocks).

the entire way we as a society have been looking at guns for 30 years is ass backwards.

this is not hyperbole. you’re asking why there are more mass shootings and there’s evidence that states loosen gun laws after them, so what else would happen?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...47272719301446

it’s pretty clearly spelled out: less control, more mass shootings (in addition to suicides, spousal issues etc).

this is the cycle we are in.

no shooter has used a bump stock to kill 50 people since vegas, does that mean it should be legal?


https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom...-control-laws/


and the overwhelming number of nass shootings were conducted using weapons of legally acquired means

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...oters-weapons/

to focus on “constitutional carry” when i was giving you many examples reads to me like “me me me i’m a gun owner we can’t do anything and don’t infringe on mah rights”.

i am not a lawyer and i am sorry you find a preponderance of evidence and corpses unconvincing.

enjoy your attention trolling other people.

[leroy jenkins]

I'm not sure any shooter used a bump stock to kill anyone in vegas either but thats a rabbit hole.

Regardless many mass shooters are already banned from owning guns due to prior criminal history.

[oldnew_guy]

The Venn diagram of people who don’t want to do anything to restrict access to guns and don’t want to do anything to address the social ills they point to (income, mental health, etc etc) is a circle.

[leroy jenkins]

The Venn diagram of people who don’t want to do anything to restrict access to guns and don’t want to do anything to address the social ills they point to (income, mental health, etc etc) is a circle.

youre wrong. I'm an example to the contrary.

Although it also seems like many people who want to ban the guns don't want to do anything else.

[ex-powderbroker]

ideas mentioned that would make a difference:

database tracking possession
insurance and maintenance requirements or training (treat like cars)
mandatory storage requirements
no gun show loophole
licensing like fully auto for firearms for assault weapons
allow govt money to study the problem
increase access to mental health (read: money for people to go get help they need)
red flag laws
enforce all of the laws on the books and don’t let people who have drinking or violence problems get guns

it sucks for sane people who have wanted to stem the access and enjoy society with less guns but here we are. gun control works and is in no way “banning”.

[oldnew_guy]

youre wrong. I'm an example to the contrary.

Although it also seems like many people who want to ban the guns don't want to do anything else.

You understand the hyperbolic, stereotypical point right?

Why don’t the people blaming gun violence on social ills to the exclusion of any other solution do anything about the social ills?

Why did they literally scream that mental health was the culprit and turn around and immediately vote down increasing access?