Water Getting in Between Ski Edge and Base?

[stupendous_man]

I noticed something strange on my skis.
It looks like water is getting in between a tiny gap from the edge and the base. In this picture, it looks like the edge underneath the base might be getting rusty and starting to pull away. If I look up and down along the edges of both the skis, I can see slight browning under the base from what I would guess is rust. I can also see tiny bubbles right along the edge and under the base, like water is seeping in.

What could be going on here? The skis are in good shape overall, bases mostly unscratched with no edge cracks. They’re ON3P Woodsman 108’s.

Would the manufacturer be able to help? This seems like a warranty issue, but I bought these used off a mag.


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[gregorys]

I had a pair of Volkl Mantras a number of years ago.
I got them damaged - edge-hits/compressions etc.

(I got them cheap, so they were no risk to work on, if I destroyed them, I wasn't out much.)

The short story is; The edges had pulled out in a couple of places. I repaired those (somewhat involved, but not too hard.)
I then skied them myself, and while I certainly hit some rocks, I pulled an edge myself - and more easily than I thought should occur.

I'd noticed when working on them, that the edges from all three pulls were "rusty" on the "T" sections that are embedded in the ski core. After thinking about it, and considering - my general guess is the the ski was pressed without enough epoxy in the layup. So, parts that should have been fully wetted out with epoxy weren't and that that left the edges and core more available for water to get into it. And water did get in and caused those edge sections to lightly rust, which then also impacted how well they held, and caused them to pull more easily.

I don't actually KNOW that's the cause in my case, but I'm fairly sure that's right. Tuco or others might chime in here.

And given your description, that sounds like a reasonable/possible explanation to your case too.

And yes, that would sound like a flaw in the construction of the ski. IMO, a good vendor would fix it, regardless of the owner, and regardless of age. (IMO) I think (if I'm right) that the problem is a manufacturing flaw. If it's a glue starved layup, it was just wrong from the start. I'd probably ask ON3P about it.

[ASmileyFace]

I also had this happen on a pair of ON3Ps, but I think it's fairly common for other brands too. I noticed while tuning them that I could kinda slide a razor blade a few millimeters between the inside of the edge and the base material. It didn't extend much further than a few inches around the heel piece on one ski. I figured it was just a slight defect or was caused by hitting something. It didn't decrease the performance of the ski in any way.

I ended up just mixing up some epoxy, and stuffed it into the gap using the same razor blade/ a heat gun. While it "fixed" the problem for me I could see how if given enough time water would work it's way into the ski and weaken the bond between the edge and the rest of the ski. That said, I've put probably 60+ days on those skis since and haven't noticed it getting any worse, including a big time rock strike in the same zone that gouged the base to the core right next to that same edge.

I'd be curious to hear if this really is a warranty level issue. I don't personally think it is unless you had an edge pull out easily with obvious rust damage.

[stupendous_man]

Here’s what the manufacturer had to say for the curious:

Thanks for the email. Sorry to see the damage, but also good that you caught it so that the cause can be addressed. So your read is partial correct. It is water getting into the ski, though it is a freeze/thaw cycle that is causing the damage, not lack of epoxy. Appears to be some base damage here that has left a small gap between the edge and the base. Even something this big if left unsealed is going to allow water into the ski.

In terms of the expansion you are seeing in the base - it isn't rust or related to lack of epoxy saturation (the base/edge area of the ski is non-permeable, so it isn't like fiberglass where lack of saturation can lead to dry spots). Rather it is water that is getting into the ski through the above hole and expanding as it freezes. This then starts to create separation between the layers as it expands. It then melts - leaving the slight bit of separation - which will then get water in it again, freezing again, expanding again, and repeating.

This is how it spreads down from the start of the water damage. Essentially it is sort of a slowly moving ice wedge. Generally it is much more common in park skis - as edge cracks lead to all sort of water getting into the skis, but a bit of base damage here along the edge can have the same result. As the edge is both more robust than the plastic and bonded on top - where the base only has one surface of bonding - it is the base where the water damage manifests.

The discoloration is created as the layers separate and some of the epoxy flood coat comes up (which hopefully puts in perspective the strength of the epoxy bond, as it is in this case able to supersede the epoxy flood coat which is there to enhance bonding over the UMHW). Generally looks worse than it is but it is good that you are paying attention. The stuff we have seen people ignore/not notice on park skis can be pretty crazy sometimes.

Seeing the base bubble up here would be another biproduct.

In terms of repair, the photo here is a bit difficult to tell how best to proceed, but if we were to repair it it would likely be one of two options. Simpler would be to seal the hole and give the ski a regrind to flatten out the expanded area. That would be if we didn't see much base separation perpendicularly into the ski. More complex would be a patch if we felt sealing/regrinding wasn't sufficient. We have a tech friend in town who is better at repairs than us, so would probably loop him in to see what he would think is best.



Pretty interesting, especially given the fact that it seems to be a relatively common problem. A shop tech I showed it to quickly pulled a rental ski off the rack with the exact same issue.

I think the epoxy/razor blade fix is a good one. I’m considering throwing some Ptex on it and skiing the last 10 days of the season, but I don’t think that will actually fix it. Maybe just slow the water seepage. In the off season I would do a proper repair or bring it to ON3P.

Thanks for the input guys.


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[tuco]

Definite base damage there. I can see perpendicular ripples that look like delam. That's gonna need a patch(not weld).
Freeze/thaw is definitely a thing. Not sure it would propagate like that tho and does not explain your other 3 edges w/ same problem.
Full epoxy saturation of edge/base interface is definitely a thing as well though(not saying that's the case here).
Here's a pic of a ski that didn't get full wet out and you can see what freeze/thaw does(btw ice buildup @ these areas while skiing can be dangerous). Note rust under base w/ 0 base damage!
Another thing that can cause full edge delamming is improper storage. If edges are left to really rust that epoxy seal @ edge base interface is not impervious enough to stop rust from propagating underneath the base. Any time you get leakage there, it is going to rust.