Page 5 of 64 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 1580
  1. #101
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,510
    I thought we were arguing for abolishing all degrees that weren't STEM degrees?

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,533
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    I thought we were arguing for abolishing all degrees that weren't STEM degrees?
    it’s only the people who got shitty 15hr a week stem degrees arguing that. Any decent degree expects more than 15hrs a week - readings/hw can easily match in class time.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    No, it's pretty simple.

    Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

    But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

    Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

    If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.
    I never went to a bar in college, ever. I went to more bars in middle and high school with my fake and a camera than I would in the next decade. I got a 75% scholarship, did work study, and started a club with 2 others (in name only) and was paid to brew beer as a zymurgy experiment for 3 years. I recycled beer bottles, took grad classes, graduated in 3 years and worked my ass off for cash, well over 40 hours a week over the span. I got a passport, traveled during breaks, hopped a shit ton of trains, never owned a car, kept it to a moto, blew that up and rebuilt it and got on; I also did my teaching internship where I had to be in HS math classes to teach at least 3 days a week and wrote a year long thesis while I worked. I graduated debt free from the most expensive private college in the nation at that time in 3 years. I still was a DJ, still volunteered, and was the captain of my "sport team".

    I am very familiar with the insane costs, and am in tune with our current crop of students. Sure, it's a different playing field, but the metrics have shifted, not changed, and kids are lazy AF overall. I took a year off after college, hiked the AT, went back in the kitchen, paid off my debt, then got a tech job in Boston, bought a new TRD in 96, then sold it 4 years later to pay for books to go back to school. At that time, I never talked to my parents for 5 years and was nowhere to be seen. Then I showed back up at home to bury them.

    FYI, the tuition for my college in 1993 was 23k per year. You do the work/math. I know I did. And in 1989, I said fuck this town and applied for private high schools. My twin was the HS president of the local PS HS. I got a 50% scholarship, did work study, and dived into the restaurant business working on the line till 3 am driving my waitress Mom home every night, and then commuting 2 hours each way to school. Paid that off before I even started college at 16. I said FTS and got out.

    Oh yeah, buy BTC in 1989.

    And for Buster, Reed was my 1st choice. I met with an alumnus in the World Trade Center. I got the acceptance a few months later. My parents didn't know why I was crying so hard as a punk coming in with an open letter- hell, they didn't even know I applied to college. Yes, I was in, 2, I couldn't pay for it with the money they gave me, and neither could they, and nor did I expect it. Choices. Make them.

    My twin ended up going from HS president to and upstate SUNY. She fucked and married her first boyfriend. Got a masters in Geo and has spent the last 20 years as a stay at home mom. Completely miserable with an abusive husband in eastern WA. Going through a divorce in her late 40's, 3 kids flying the coop, and wondering how to actually start a life for herself. Starting teaching MS science to have something to do and get away from the husband.
    Last edited by MakersTeleMark; 05-02-2022 at 08:53 AM.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Nhampshire
    Posts
    7,762
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    No, it's pretty simple.

    Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

    But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

    Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

    If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.
    Let's even take work ethic out of this - pure time logistics are the challenge as many schools offer major requirements at only a limited number of time slots that may conflict with work. Not to mention competitive programs have an expectation of additional event attendance because schools assume students are full time.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,944
    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    it’s only the people who got shitty 15hr a week stem degrees arguing that. Any decent degree expects more than 15hrs a week - readings/hw can easily match in class time.
    A non-STEM degree with a 15 hour load has 15 hours of week in classroom and then you do readings and homework on top of that, but that's flexible and probably amounts to less than 40 hours in total for most majors.

    Your STEM degree still signs you up for 15 credits but you are in the classroom 12 hours a week and then lab for another 8-15 hours a week (because 3-5 hours in a lab only counts for 1 credit hour) and THEN still have WAY more reading and homework than the non-STEM degree. A healthcare degree puts you in class 15 hours a week and then puts you in clinical for 24+ hours a week and on top of that you do pre-prep, post conference, and then STILL have way more reading and homework than a non-STEM degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    5,529
    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    I never went to a bar in college, ever. I went to more bars in middle and high school with my fake and a camera than I would in the next decade. I got a 75% scholarship, did work study, and started a club with 2 others (in name only) and was paid to brew beer as a zymurgy experiment for 3 years. I recycled beer bottles, took grad classes, graduated in 3 years and worked my ass off for cash, well over 40 hours a week over the span. I got a passport, traveled during breaks, hopped a shit ton of trains, never owned a car, kept it to a moto, blew that up and rebuilt it and got on; I also did my teaching internship where I had to be in HS math classes to teach at least 3 days a week and wrote a year long thesis while I worked. I graduated debt free from the most expensive private college in the nation at that time in 3 years. I still was a DJ, still volunteered, and was the captain of my "sport team".

    I am very familiar with the insane costs, and am in tune with our current crop of students. Sure, it's a different playing field, but the metrics have shifted, not changed, and kids are lazy AF overall. I took a year off after college, hiked the AT, went back in the kitchen, paid off my debt, then got a tech job in Boston, bought a new TRD in 96, then sold it 4 years later to pay for books to go back to school. At that time, I never talked to my parents for 5 years and was nowhere to be seen. Then I showed back up at home to bury them.

    FYI, the tuition for my college in 1993 was 23k per year. You do the work/math. I know I did. And in 1989, I said fuck this town and applied for private high schools. My twin was the HS president of the local PS HS. I got a 50% scholarship, did work study, and dived into the restaurant business working on the line till 3 am driving my waitress Mom home every night, and then commuting 2 hours each way to school. Paid that off before I even started college at 16. I said FTS and got out.

    Oh yeah, buy BTC in 1989.
    You sound like an exceptional person, which is great, but also an exception.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    10,955
    How about:

    -We cancel the interest on all student loans. It was not financially responsible to make an uncollateralized loan to someone with no income or assets. Any loans paid back in the last ten years will either receive a credit on taxes or refund from the private lender for interest as well. Maybe lenders will quit making crazy loans and maybe without that cash available moving forward, tuition inflation will cool.

    -For private schools with either a large endowment or high profit margin or both, the amount over the equivalent tuition at a public school will be paid by the school back to the lender. Need to work on that threshold.

    -Remove bankruptcy protection stipulations for student loans.

    -Audit business profits and personal wealth generation due to PPP loans. Call those notes and apply it to the student loan crisis and future grants/scholarships proportionately.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,621
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    A full course load is 30 credits per year for 4 years. That's 15 hours of class per week + homework for only 8-9 months a year with hefty breaks. There are fucktons of free time, otherwise frat parties, clubs and student athletes wouldn't exist. It's all about "The College Experience!"

    Students can't find time to work? Don't feed me that bullshit unless you are a STEM or healthcare student where you have clinicals and labs sucking up time in excess that are multiples of the credit hour load. And I still knew plenty of nursing students who held down low skilled hospital jobs part time during their vastly-more-time-intensive-than-a-business-major curriculum. I did. That looks good to employers too.

    Don't tell me knocking 18K/yr off your loans is meaningless. Can't find a job to fit the school schedule? Pull 18 credits per semester and go to school in the summer and finish school in 3 years.

    Instead 59% percent of students take 5-6 years to finish a 4 year degree. Some did so because they weren't prepared for college, but mostly it is because because college is a fun lifestyle, so who cares if you change your major 5 times, take a relaxed credit load, and hang out in a great party place to hide from the real world! You can live that lifestyle of credit: student loans no questions asked!!!

    (I keep using a business degree for examples only because it is the NUMBER ONE college degree in the US, isn't known for high academic demands, and very few people actually have jobs that specifically require it.)
    You are smart. Why are you ignoring the stats about how many students are working at least part time? The numbers float between ~50-80% depending on part versus full time school. Maybe that has a connection to your 5-6 year graduation concern?

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,944
    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    You are smart. Why are you ignoring the stats about how many students are working at least part time? The numbers float between ~50-80% depending on part versus full time school. Maybe that has a connection to your 5-6 year graduation concern?
    My point is the vast majority of students could work a part time job while finishing in 4 years or less.

    If you take 6 years to do 120 credits, that is 10 credits per semester while still having the summers off, or 6-7 credits / semester year round, a VERY part time student. You can work a full time job all 6 years no problem, maybe pick one that does tuition reimbursement.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Well, I did both, though I ended up with some student loans because kids are effing expensive and I had two at the time and a stay-at-home spouse.

    But it’s not an option available to all. Is it? Is it an option available to all?
    Having kids and a stay at home mom is definitely a 1st world problem.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Nhampshire
    Posts
    7,762
    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    You sound like an exceptional person, which is great, but also an exception.
    Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.

    If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other responsibilities". Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter. I worked through my whole time at college and saw plenty of them working at the on-campus computer store.
    This also implies that pure achievement is what gets you ahead in business and life - it's not. The kid who worked through school will likely be less successful as they will come out with a much weaker network compared to peers with more social exposure. Until hiring moves away from who you know being important, the importance of strong friend networks won't change. This isn't to say you need to enable a 4 year vacation, it's just putting some truth around why some of the "screwing around" is actually useful in the long term.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    No, it's pretty simple.

    Average cost for in-state tuition across the country is ~10k. If you're working 50 weeks a year, and only two shifts a week because you're trying to pull good grades, that's $12.50 an hour. No problem.

    But factor in cost of living. Rent is almost never below $500 for a shitty room these days. Food/bills/etc. How much did you spend on weed and beer when you were 20?

    Even if some kid is making $15 an hour and three shifts a week, that's only $18k/year. That's just not going to cut it paying cost of living and tuition out of pocket.

    If you want to earn the grades and build the cv necessary to get into a good grad school(research, extra-curricular, etc.), good luck working a full time job on top of that. Most Americans don't have that kind of work ethic.
    You can work PT at Safeway in a ski town and make $20/hr. and telecommute to college and pay $600/month with a couple roommates. And ski everyday and party for free as much as you want.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,944
    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.
    I know many people who went through a 4 year nursing degree, incredibly time demanding, had a job, and were single moms. They were a very sizeable minority of the non-sub-22yo student population.

    Life isn't easy for everyone. In fact it is FUCKING HARD.

    If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other
    It isn't a gate. It is very achievable for most. And, people do better when they hit the workforce with some actual work experience.

    Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter.
    Wait so then who are the ones who are complaining about student loans? The ones who worked or the screw arounds who didn't?

    Screwing around is fine, just don't bitch about it and demand the public pay for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    8,248
    I guess if you have paid off your student loans you are doing okay. If you haven't paid off the student loans, you either just graduated or recently graduated in the past few years or you just might be struggling with the job prospects because you got a degree in 17th century French poetry or some other worthless degree. Not in favor of blanket forgiveness. I like the idea of just making it principal only. Maybe extend the payment terms. And means test it.

    Also, what happens when the Dems are out of office, and the next Repub gets in and says, sorry, not sorry kids, no student loan debt forgiveness for you? I guess that's just life.

    I'm sure that team Biden is polling hard the student loan debt crowd to see what it will take to get their vote. (And most probably won't even end up voting) Unlike the rich CEO's of America who are able to easily buy legislation in favor of corporate America, poor students can't buy a politicians vote and have to resort to extortion.

    However, it does appear that there might be some trickle down effect of forgiving some student loan debt. So, maybe there's some benefits to the overall economy? IDK. I'm surrounded by a bunch of smart people that have gone back to school and gotten advanced degrees. They all have the benefit of employer tuition reimbursement. So, the employer sees the value in having a well educated workforce, and most larger corporations are willing to invest in their employees to some degree. Maybe American taxpayers like me, can foot some of that trickle down. We all know the rich won't be the ones footing the bill for these kids.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Quote Originally Posted by schuss View Post
    Yep, also excludes those who come from different backgrounds and have to be caretakers to parents, grandparents, siblings or other family. Or people with disabilities.

    If you want an educated workforce, you can't gate education behind a wall of "must work and go to school with no other responsibilities". Plenty of the "screw around" kids are those with plenty of family money so it doesn't matter. I worked through my whole time at college and saw plenty of them working at the on-campus computer store.
    This also implies that pure achievement is what gets you ahead in business and life - it's not. The kid who worked through school will likely be less successful as they will come out with a much weaker network compared to peers with more social exposure. Until hiring moves away from who you know being important, the importance of strong friend networks won't change. This isn't to say you need to enable a 4 year vacation, it's just putting some truth around why some of the "screwing around" is actually useful in the long term.
    BS. The place where you go and your GPA, especially now, are the only things that matter. Not your sorority.

    And you ability to put down your Xbox, the latest phone, live frugally, and have a fucking vision. It really helps if you are socially adjusted.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    my own little world
    Posts
    5,838
    Quote Originally Posted by MakersTeleMark View Post
    Having kids and a stay at home mom is definitely a 1st world problem.
    I guess. My point is that even though I, like you, found myself capable of working a real life full time job while attending school full time and supporting a family and got out of it with pretty minimal student loans, it’s not an option available to all and I did it at 25 instead of at 18, and even if it was available to all, I can well recognize that it isn’t something that everybody is capable of accomplishing. Not meant as a humblebrag, like your comments are, just a reality I can recognize after interacting with different workforces over the years.
    focus.

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    21,944
    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    However, it does appear that there might be some trickle down effect of forgiving some student loan debt. So, maybe there's some benefits to the overall economy? IDK.
    On the left we scream that trickle down is bullshit... until we need to justify the doling out of public monies to the petit bourgeoise who are higher earners? This is anti-equality, politically toxic and unethical bad one-time-fix policy that doesn't solve the underlying problems.

    Do we need a spending infusion of "free" money when interest rates are skyrocketing to combat inflation? Fuck no!

    I mean, I'll happily take 10K if the gov wants to pay down my student loans. But that doesn't mean I think it is good policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Joisey
    Posts
    2,645
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Not trying to go polyass, and I know most of you old geezers are too old to be directly affected.

    I don’t have much student debt, but still have a small balance that would mostly get wiped out by $10k in forgiveness if I ended up qualifying. I’ve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, let’s do it.

    From an economics perspective, seems like a broad brush way to circulate a little more cash. Is that what we need right now? Does this really keep families from going under? Open up new opportunities?

    It’s obviously not really equitable. I’m not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didn’t get the benefit feels hollow, but valid all the same.

    Anyways. I don’t know how to think about it, and without a 200 page thread of bickering on TGR how am I supposed to ever figure it out?

    Attachment 414950
    I haven't read the myriad of responses, but this statement should tell you that it's BS
    "I’ve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, let’s do it. "

    And what??
    "It’s obviously not really equitable. I’m not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didn’t get the benefit feels hollow,"

    Whining? So people who are responsible and take accountability for their actions are whining because they don't want slackers to get off and don;t want to pay slackers bills?? Mind blown.

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    A LSD Steakhouse somewhere in the Wasatch
    Posts
    13,234
    i forgive all loan debts and problems
    now garner life skills to pay them bills
    or be a dead beat and face consequences of such
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -ski on in eternal peace
    "I have posted in here but haven't read it carefully with my trusty PoliAsshat antenna on."-DipshitDanno

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    I guess. My point is that even though I, like you, found myself capable of working a real life full time job while attending school full time and supporting a family and got out of it with pretty minimal student loans, it’s not an option available to all and I did it at 25 instead of at 18, and even if it was available to all, I can well recognize that it isn’t something that everybody is capable of accomplishing. Not meant as a humblebrag, like your comments are, just a reality I can recognize after interacting with different workforces over the years.
    Speak for yourself. You always assume. I didn't fuck for 2 kids and put a wife under me. Might be a good lesson for them, all three of the last sentences.
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  21. #121
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,621
    I’m hoping that the general acknowledgement that the system is not working well leads to some compromise where a lot of what is discussed here is addressed, but in this political climate I’m not holding my breath.

    This generally seems like a culture war topic while the real money is walking away smiling at us fighting over scraps.

  22. #122
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    8,248
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    On the left we scream that trickle down is bullshit... until we need to justify the doling out of public monies to the petit bourgeoise who are higher earners? This is anti-equality, politically toxic and unethical bad one-time-fix policy that doesn't solve the underlying problems.

    Do we need a spending infusion of "free" money when interest rates are skyrocketing to combat inflation? Fuck no!

    I mean, I'll happily take 10K if the gov wants to pay down my student loans. But that doesn't mean I think it is good policy.
    Well, trickle down is bullshit. And I agree, it's bad policy to just forgive loans. There's not enough juice in the squeeze.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  23. #123
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    关你屁事
    Posts
    9,533
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    A non-STEM degree with a 15 hour load has 15 hours of week in classroom and then you do readings and homework on top of that, but that's flexible and probably amounts to less than 40 hours in total for most majors.

    Your STEM degree still signs you up for 15 credits but you are in the classroom 12 hours a week and then lab for another 8-15 hours a week (because 3-5 hours in a lab only counts for 1 credit hour) and THEN still have WAY more reading and homework than the non-STEM degree. A healthcare degree puts you in class 15 hours a week and then puts you in clinical for 24+ hours a week and on top of that you do pre-prep, post conference, and then STILL have way more reading and homework than a non-STEM degree.
    This is bullshit, the main difference observed wasn’t overall workload but the ability to skate without doing the work. Eg while getting my stem degree one of English courses has a book a week, but you could get by only reading a couple

    measuring degrees by work inputed is Marxist dipshittery anyways; music degrees can require incredible effort and talent but generally aren’t worth shit

  24. #124
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    19,215
    Just for context, the global market cap of BTC is less than the current US student loan debt. Just the US. That is a shitton of mostly non-dischargable debt.

    #cumfreeplaystheskinflute
    Is it radix panax notoginseng? - splat
    This is like hanging yourself but the rope breaks. - DTM
    Dude Listen to mtm. He's a marriage counselor at burning man. - subtle plague

  25. #125
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    The Bull City
    Posts
    14,003
    My kid did cafeteria work study year one. He's working as a part time shift manager at Jack in the Box this year, 17 hours of classes, engineering school and doing quite well. Even finds time to satisfy his gaming addiction.. He's in the dorms. It's still costing us a lot of money and he's racking up some debt, but we're not below the poverty line so we're paying over half of the expenses. He also has a scholarship that covers about 25% of it.
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •