Student Loan Forgiveness

[dunfree]

There are plenty of places that have tests for admission, it is not discrimination. I went to a public high school that had that. And some states have guaranteed admission to certain in-state schools if you meet certain criteria, it's not like we can't figure this shit out. You can set standards on it, it doesn't have to be simply "if you graduate". I do agree that a vocational track should be commonplace if not required. And I believe that high schools should have a mandatory personal finance class that teaches about things like loans, interest rates, balancing a checkbook, compound interest, etc.

vocational education is a loser in the usa because most employers don’t give a fuck about it, and most programs last too long for the marginal earning value they impart. Outside medicine votech. This is just virtue signaling/culture war bullshit

some votechs are the biggest student loan mills around.

[summit]

There are plenty of places that have tests for admission, it is not discrimination. I went to a public high school that had that. And some states have guaranteed admission to certain in-state schools if you meet certain criteria, it's not like we can't figure this shit out. You can set standards on it, it doesn't have to be simply "if you graduate". I do agree that a vocational track should be commonplace if not required. And I believe that high schools should have a mandatory personal finance class that teaches about things like loans, interest rates, balancing a checkbook, compound interest, etc.

I agree with all of this. It's frankly criminal that "logic and rationalism" and "personal finance" are not part of highschool ed nationwide.

I have just noticed a trend in higher ed where they are getting rid of standardized tests requirements in the name of anti-racism. I only worry that will worsen

[dan_pdx]

I have just noticed a trend in higher ed where they are getting rid of standardized tests requirements in the name of anti-racism. I only worry that will worsen

They'll just find some proxy for standardized tests that yields the same results.

[SumJongGuy]

Imagine a nation with a fair living minimum wage and universal healthcare.. A lot of the pressure and feeling the need to HAVE to have a college degree just to survive comfortably would be eased..

[Core Shot]

We have two tech high schools.

It’s fucking brilliant. Get a high school edumacation and also get skills. No need for post high ripoff votech.

But yeah, colledge sucks at todays prices . It’s finishing and fuck around time for most kids. Rarely worth the investment

Making it non dischargable in bankruptcy killed it.
If a bank was on the hook for your motivation and choice of degree things would be better.

[Supermoon]

But yeah, colledge sucks. It’s finishing and fuck around time for most kids. Rarely worth the investment

Unless your a teacher, or a doctor, or an engineer, or a programmer, or a scientist, or a journalist, or a lawyer, or ….

[dunfree]

One downside to this system is that countries that have adopted it (such as mine) make it fucking hard to get anywhere near the industry or field without a specific degree in that field. The USA does better in this regard in that you can study a wider range of courses and still get a decent job in an unrelated field. Here you have to go and do additional study if you want to move to another field.

This system ends up shoehorning kids into professions they know fuck-all about but think they want when they're young, then they get pigeonholed and frustrated they can't change jobs without having to start all over again when the reality of working in their chosen field hits them.

Or you can go to the US, rack up insane debt but get a degree from a very highly regarded university that'll either get you permanent residency or the opportunity to change employers with ease back in your home country.

No. The whole us student loan crisis is many US people can’t get a decent job with their educational investment in the US. The US has a fantastic higher education system, the best in the world perhaps, but there’s also many many distortions. That other countries employers value tumble bullshitters doesn’t change the internal dynamics

[Danno]

Making it non dischargable in bankruptcy killed it.
If a bank was on the hook for your motivation and choice of degree things would be better.

I actually think this one gets glossed over all the time, and is really hudge.

[Danno]

vocational education is a loser in the usa because most employers don’t give a fuck about it, and most programs last too long for the marginal earning value they impart. Outside medicine votech. This is just virtue signaling/culture war bullshit

some votechs are the biggest student loan mills around.

Was talking about a high school track. No loan required. That's where vocational training used to come from.

[dunfree]

Was talking about a high school track. No loan required.

To get effective high school votech you’d need to silo and retool kids even earlier - and without effective unions it’s a life sentence. The most effective votech program I saw was a month, or two, or three depending on how many skills you selected, welding program in a town with an employer that desperately needed welders. Show up sober, basic competence, there’s a job at the end that pays more than fastfood/megamart. The first two are the hard part for many. Way more efficient in time/money than the other programs

if you want to fix us higher education more respect for structured continuing education, less for gatekeepers

[dunfree]

One downside to this system is that countries that have adopted it (such as mine) make it fucking hard to get anywhere near the industry or field without a specific degree in that field. The USA does better in this regard in that you can study a wider range of courses and still get a decent job in an unrelated field. Here you have to go and do additional study if you want to move to another field.

This system ends up shoehorning kids into professions they know fuck-all about but think they want when they're young, then they get pigeonholed and frustrated they can't change jobs without having to start all over again when the reality of working in their chosen field hits them.

Or you can go to the US, rack up insane debt but get a degree from a very highly regarded university that'll either get you permanent residency or the opportunity to change employers with ease back in your home country.

Yeah I did my undergrad in the US. Wife did too. She still has student loan debts in the US. Paying them in Koala Kash sucks when the Aus dollar keeps dropping.

And speaking from hard-earned experience, foreign employers don't care at all that the US system values and encourages generalist study when vetting applicants. The attitude is "you didn't specifically study project management, no interview for you."

American-educated lawyers get hit hard by this one, can't practice here unless they go to a local university and do a course even if they've done law school in the US and passed the bar. Instead they get called consultants until they do an entire law degree here from scratch. Dumb system sometimes.

Outside of a select few universities, and some alumni networks, few in the us respect generalist degrees. People with “liberal arts” degrees should expect to be baristas for eternity. I’m just not sure that regulated professions like law or medicine are a good point - an exes brother moved from Oz to be a MD in the US because it was far more lucrative

[summit]

Danno I agree. Make debt dischargeable and it even takes some onus off the schools. Tuition is just insane and has to drop, and it is not all due to gov funding cuts.

Dischargeable debt means banks may loan less based on the student, program, and the school.

Schools might have to actually face some pressure and figure out what is gonna get cut and still see the academics pass muster and attracts students and funds. Tuition and fees would HAVE to give, and so would costs. Suddenly the Uni president might decide there isn't a budget for a new intramural sports stadium, private dorm rooms for all students, 12 different identity group student unions, a dean + full staff of diversity and inclusion, and 50 other questionable admin jobs.

One downside to this system is that countries that have adopted it (such as mine) make it fucking hard to get anywhere near the industry or field without a specific degree in that field. The USA does better in this regard in that you can study a wider range of courses and still get a decent job in an unrelated field. Here you have to go and do additional study if you want to move to another field.

This system ends up shoehorning kids into professions they know fuck-all about but think they want when they're young, then they get pigeonholed and frustrated they can't change jobs without having to start all over again when the reality of working in their chosen field hits them.

Or you can go to the US, rack up insane debt but get a degree from a very highly regarded university that'll either get you permanent residency or the opportunity to change employers with ease back in your home country.

Interesting. Appreciate your post. Sounds like an industry attitude problem vs an educational system problem?

[J. Barron DeJong]

Unless your a teacher, or a doctor, or an engineer, or a programmer, or a scientist, or a journalist, or a lawyer, or ….

You forgot philosophy majors:

[Falcon3]

I’m so mad they cured cancer after I got cancer and had to go through chemotherapy and surgery!

Everybody should have to go through the same shitty things I did! They should make everybody do chemo and stop using the cure!

See how stupid that sounds? It’s a policy decision. Bush started two pointless wars that cost $Trillions and there wasn’t discussion on how to pay for it. Obama and Co bailed out the banks to the tune of $Trillions while corrupt inept execs got golden parachutes for running their banks into the fucking ground, and only the dirty hippies in Occupy Wall Street cared enough to pipe up. Trump gave big business and rich assholes $Billions in tax cuts.

Biden actually helps the average American and you guys are pissed. Fuck off.

America is better off when people are better educated. And the education system has been broken for too long. This is one step in what should be a marathon of reforms

[Ted Striker]

This is fucking bullshit.
A hot lifty?
I’ve been skiing for 36 years and seen maybe 2 or 3.

Whistler and the Okanagan circa late 90s

[J. Barron DeJong]

Note that even people without a college degree are more likely to favor debt relief than not. Also those without a college degree are less likely to ‘strongly oppose’ debt relief than those with a graduate degree (!?)

[SB]

So a smart person would only buy something he could afford?

[Mustonen]

Yes, that hypothetical is not the common case, but why is it a case at all?

Expediency.

Did you have other questions?

[Core Shot]

You forgot philosophy majors:

Hey now. I have a philosophy degree.
Oh wait. I’m doing ok.

I’m glad some of you agree about the BK thing.

The counter argument is poor folks can’t go to colledge. But I say have special programs for that. Like Pell grants.
Oh wait. We have had that for years.

[skifishbum]

the whole idea that the magic debt fairy saddled you with a sickness like cancer is laughably unintelligent

[Mustonen]

If this was 100% about fixing a broken system I could maybe pile on a bit more against it, but it isn’t, is it? As much as anything, this is about keeping the economy flowing and improving outlooks. If I have $10K to $20K in debt forgiven, I’m gonna feel a bit better about taking a vacation or buying a new car. Particularly when all the economic news has been so fucking dire the last 4 months. We need a boost, because outlook and narrative so closely drives reality.

Also, I think a programmer and a nurse were used as potential beneficiaries, and I can’t really think of a better example of who we should be incenting/rewarding. Not from any “fairness” stance, but from a healthy society stance. As OG stated upthread, We need people to pursue education and learn how to code and take care of sick people and everything else. We need people to be educated, even if it’s just a philosophy or liberal arts degree. Student loan forgiveness doesn’t address that very directly, though the discretionary income repayment updates might.

K-16 public school is probably the best idea I’ve seen yet, and proposals to make community college free makes all the sense in the world. You can make 13-16 optional, with similar degree programs run through public/community institutions. Then you can let the partyers still get mired deep into student loan debt at private or state universities. Debt that can be discharged in bankruptcy and let capitalism do what it’s designed to do while still promoting the public interest.

[Mustonen]

the whole idea that the magic debt fairy saddled you with a sickness like cancer is laughably unintelligent

I don’t love the cancer analogy. But the point is still easy enough to parse: crying about somebody else getting a good thing seems as tone deaf as comparing it to a cancer cure.

[californiagrown]

I don’t love the cancer analogy. But the point is still easy enough to parse: crying about somebody else getting a good thing seems as tone deaf as comparing it to a cancer cure.

Im a college grad. I busted my ass to pay my loans off in a handful of years. Canceling a portion of peoples loan debt rubs me the wrong way because it feels like they were gifted something they didnt work for like i did. I also realize that logically, it doesnt matter and on the whole its a good thing for them and me, if these debtors now have cash freed up to spend on the shit i do for work. Even if its a very small benefit. I also am disgusted by most peoples financial habits, so that plays a large part into debt cancelation rubbing me the wrong way. I recognize its a selfish way to look at things, and i also recognize its a net positive thing. Something i would happily bitch and moan about, but then also vote for when pressed.


That said, for the folks who never accumulated student debt by not going to college/etc, is it fair that they should have to help subsidize this debt cancelation? they obviously would benefit from the (hopefully) better economy resulting from people having more discretionary income, but does that hard-to-quantify benefit outweigh their hard-to-quantify payment into the system to subsidize the debt cancellation? I mean, this has to get paid for somehow, right?


IMO, it would seem more fair to apply the student loan debt cancelation to ALL debt... though im sure that would be infinitely more complicated to implement. I mean, when people spent the money they didnt have (on a car, clothes, medical bills, etc), it did help the economy... in many cases more than Jeremy's graduate degree in underwater basket weaving. How about we cancel medical debt first, before we look at canceling student loan debt?

[east or bust]

The thing I struggle with the most on this is the upper cap. An individual making $125,000 a year should not qualify for program. Period.

Households making $250,000 are eligible?! What the fucking shit.




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[Mustonen]

Im a college grad. I busted my ass to pay my loans off in a handful of years. Canceling a portion of peoples loan debt rubs me the wrong way because it feels like they were gifted something they didnt work for like i did. I also realize that logically, it doesnt matter and on the whole its a good thing for them and me, if these debtors now have cash freed up to spend on the shit i do for work. Even if its a very small benefit. I also am disgusted by most peoples financial habits, so that plays a large part into debt cancelation rubbing me the wrong way.


That said, for the folks who never accumulated student debt by not going to college/etc, is it fair that they should have to help subsidize this debt cancelation? they obviously would benefit from the (hopefully) better economy resulting from people having more discretionary income, but does that hard-to-quantify benefit outweigh their hard-to-quantify payment into the system to subsidize the debt cancellation?

Sure it is. Those people who didn’t go to college also benefit from nurses and teachers and programmers and engineers and everybody else, and they benefit from those people living in their communities. Both are just as hard to quantify as those folk having a bit more discretionary income. If you can’t quantify it, do you not do it? I dunno….

My only real concern is where we start to unbalance our incentives such that we work against ourselves, and I don’t see that here. Some people win the lottery from their couch and some people work like a dog their whole lives without ever having a pot to piss in. This isn’t really trying to rebalance all the scales, and there’s tons of work to do there that won’t happen via executive orders.

IMO, i would seem more fair to apply the student loan debt cancelation to ALL debt... though im sure that would be infinitely more complicated to implement. I mean, when people spent the money they didnt have (on a car, clothes, medical bills, etc), it did help the economy... in many cases more than Jeremy's graduate degree in underwater basket weaving.

But your comparison isn’t zero sum. If we can free up Jeremy to better contribute to the economy going forward that is good, too, any value judgment we may make re: his life choices notwithstanding.