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Thread: Student Loan Forgiveness
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08-24-2022, 06:13 PM #426
vocational education is a loser in the usa because most employers don’t give a fuck about it, and most programs last too long for the marginal earning value they impart. Outside medicine votech. This is just virtue signaling/culture war bullshit
some votechs are the biggest student loan mills around.
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08-24-2022, 06:14 PM #427
I agree with all of this. It's frankly criminal that "logic and rationalism" and "personal finance" are not part of highschool ed nationwide.
I have just noticed a trend in higher ed where they are getting rid of standardized tests requirements in the name of anti-racism. I only worry that will worsenOriginally Posted by blurred
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08-24-2022, 06:19 PM #428Registered User
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08-24-2022, 06:23 PM #429
Imagine a nation with a fair living minimum wage and universal healthcare.. A lot of the pressure and feeling the need to HAVE to have a college degree just to survive comfortably would be eased..
Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!
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08-24-2022, 06:24 PM #430
We have two tech high schools.
It’s fucking brilliant. Get a high school edumacation and also get skills. No need for post high ripoff votech.
But yeah, colledge sucks at todays prices . It’s finishing and fuck around time for most kids. Rarely worth the investment
Making it non dischargable in bankruptcy killed it.
If a bank was on the hook for your motivation and choice of degree things would be better.
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08-24-2022, 06:29 PM #431
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08-24-2022, 06:30 PM #432
No. The whole us student loan crisis is many US people can’t get a decent job with their educational investment in the US. The US has a fantastic higher education system, the best in the world perhaps, but there’s also many many distortions. That other countries employers value tumble bullshitters doesn’t change the internal dynamics
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08-24-2022, 06:32 PM #433"fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
"She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
"everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy
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08-24-2022, 06:33 PM #434"fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
"She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin
"everybody's got their hooks into you, fuck em....forge on motherfuckers, drag all those bitches across the goal line with you." - (not so) ill-advised strategy
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08-24-2022, 06:38 PM #435
To get effective high school votech you’d need to silo and retool kids even earlier - and without effective unions it’s a life sentence. The most effective votech program I saw was a month, or two, or three depending on how many skills you selected, welding program in a town with an employer that desperately needed welders. Show up sober, basic competence, there’s a job at the end that pays more than fastfood/megamart. The first two are the hard part for many. Way more efficient in time/money than the other programs
if you want to fix us higher education more respect for structured continuing education, less for gatekeepers
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08-24-2022, 06:54 PM #436
Outside of a select few universities, and some alumni networks, few in the us respect generalist degrees. People with “liberal arts” degrees should expect to be baristas for eternity. I’m just not sure that regulated professions like law or medicine are a good point - an exes brother moved from Oz to be a MD in the US because it was far more lucrative
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08-24-2022, 06:57 PM #437
Danno I agree. Make debt dischargeable and it even takes some onus off the schools. Tuition is just insane and has to drop, and it is not all due to gov funding cuts.
Dischargeable debt means banks may loan less based on the student, program, and the school.
Schools might have to actually face some pressure and figure out what is gonna get cut and still see the academics pass muster and attracts students and funds. Tuition and fees would HAVE to give, and so would costs. Suddenly the Uni president might decide there isn't a budget for a new intramural sports stadium, private dorm rooms for all students, 12 different identity group student unions, a dean + full staff of diversity and inclusion, and 50 other questionable admin jobs.
Interesting. Appreciate your post. Sounds like an industry attitude problem vs an educational system problem?Originally Posted by blurred
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08-24-2022, 08:36 PM #438
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08-24-2022, 09:43 PM #439Registered User
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Student Loan Forgiveness
I’m so mad they cured cancer after I got cancer and had to go through chemotherapy and surgery!
Everybody should have to go through the same shitty things I did! They should make everybody do chemo and stop using the cure!
See how stupid that sounds? It’s a policy decision. Bush started two pointless wars that cost $Trillions and there wasn’t discussion on how to pay for it. Obama and Co bailed out the banks to the tune of $Trillions while corrupt inept execs got golden parachutes for running their banks into the fucking ground, and only the dirty hippies in Occupy Wall Street cared enough to pipe up. Trump gave big business and rich assholes $Billions in tax cuts.
Biden actually helps the average American and you guys are pissed. Fuck off.
America is better off when people are better educated. And the education system has been broken for too long. This is one step in what should be a marathon of reforms
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08-24-2022, 10:11 PM #440
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08-24-2022, 11:18 PM #441
Note that even people without a college degree are more likely to favor debt relief than not. Also those without a college degree are less likely to ‘strongly oppose’ debt relief than those with a graduate degree (!?)
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08-25-2022, 04:30 AM #442
So a smart person would only buy something he could afford?
watch out for snakes
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08-25-2022, 05:11 AM #443I drink it up
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08-25-2022, 05:39 AM #444
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08-25-2022, 05:49 AM #445
the whole idea that the magic debt fairy saddled you with a sickness like cancer is laughably unintelligent
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08-25-2022, 06:01 AM #446I drink it up
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Student Loan Forgiveness
If this was 100% about fixing a broken system I could maybe pile on a bit more against it, but it isn’t, is it? As much as anything, this is about keeping the economy flowing and improving outlooks. If I have $10K to $20K in debt forgiven, I’m gonna feel a bit better about taking a vacation or buying a new car. Particularly when all the economic news has been so fucking dire the last 4 months. We need a boost, because outlook and narrative so closely drives reality.
Also, I think a programmer and a nurse were used as potential beneficiaries, and I can’t really think of a better example of who we should be incenting/rewarding. Not from any “fairness” stance, but from a healthy society stance. As OG stated upthread, We need people to pursue education and learn how to code and take care of sick people and everything else. We need people to be educated, even if it’s just a philosophy or liberal arts degree. Student loan forgiveness doesn’t address that very directly, though the discretionary income repayment updates might.
K-16 public school is probably the best idea I’ve seen yet, and proposals to make community college free makes all the sense in the world. You can make 13-16 optional, with similar degree programs run through public/community institutions. Then you can let the partyers still get mired deep into student loan debt at private or state universities. Debt that can be discharged in bankruptcy and let capitalism do what it’s designed to do while still promoting the public interest.focus.
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08-25-2022, 06:07 AM #447I drink it up
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08-25-2022, 07:22 AM #448Registered User
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Im a college grad. I busted my ass to pay my loans off in a handful of years. Canceling a portion of peoples loan debt rubs me the wrong way because it feels like they were gifted something they didnt work for like i did. I also realize that logically, it doesnt matter and on the whole its a good thing for them and me, if these debtors now have cash freed up to spend on the shit i do for work. Even if its a very small benefit. I also am disgusted by most peoples financial habits, so that plays a large part into debt cancelation rubbing me the wrong way. I recognize its a selfish way to look at things, and i also recognize its a net positive thing. Something i would happily bitch and moan about, but then also vote for when pressed.
That said, for the folks who never accumulated student debt by not going to college/etc, is it fair that they should have to help subsidize this debt cancelation? they obviously would benefit from the (hopefully) better economy resulting from people having more discretionary income, but does that hard-to-quantify benefit outweigh their hard-to-quantify payment into the system to subsidize the debt cancellation? I mean, this has to get paid for somehow, right?
IMO, it would seem more fair to apply the student loan debt cancelation to ALL debt... though im sure that would be infinitely more complicated to implement. I mean, when people spent the money they didnt have (on a car, clothes, medical bills, etc), it did help the economy... in many cases more than Jeremy's graduate degree in underwater basket weaving. How about we cancel medical debt first, before we look at canceling student loan debt?
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08-25-2022, 07:28 AM #449Registered User
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The thing I struggle with the most on this is the upper cap. An individual making $125,000 a year should not qualify for program. Period.
Households making $250,000 are eligible?! What the fucking shit.
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08-25-2022, 07:33 AM #450I drink it up
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Sure it is. Those people who didn’t go to college also benefit from nurses and teachers and programmers and engineers and everybody else, and they benefit from those people living in their communities. Both are just as hard to quantify as those folk having a bit more discretionary income. If you can’t quantify it, do you not do it? I dunno….
My only real concern is where we start to unbalance our incentives such that we work against ourselves, and I don’t see that here. Some people win the lottery from their couch and some people work like a dog their whole lives without ever having a pot to piss in. This isn’t really trying to rebalance all the scales, and there’s tons of work to do there that won’t happen via executive orders.
But your comparison isn’t zero sum. If we can free up Jeremy to better contribute to the economy going forward that is good, too, any value judgment we may make re: his life choices notwithstanding.focus.
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