Student Loan Forgiveness

[oldnew_guy]

You missed the point. Prove me wrong: in the long run most kids (who are planning on attending college) are better off with summer jobs (while in junior high & high school) than they are trying to play the get into a better school game.

I went to college so I know better than to play some stupid internet game of “prove me wrong”.

[MultiVerse]

Did college teach you about non sequiturs?

[oldnew_guy]

Did college teach you about non sequiturs?

I figured it was appropriate considering your request.

[fastfred]

I'm not bragging, I'm just speaking frankly about finances, which is something my generation seems particularly squeamish about. Based on a couple months of reading here, I doubt I crack the 60th percentile of net worth for TGR posters over the age of 60.

There are either a whole lot of rich old fucks on here, or a whole lot of bullshit artists.

Ok boomer

Guess you missed happy hour cause your total bitch tonight maybe you should hit up one of your ski town houses and learn how to chill like a pro happy hr was fun then it was pulling tubes at my neighbors no one was cunty anywhere I went and no one cares what you got it all matters what kinda person you are at my private school there were lots of guys like your son always down to smoke my pole when I needed it

[BCMtnHound]

IShuswap Highlands? Would one describe the Clearwater-Vavenby-Avola tri-metroplex as that? And to answer your question, despite the jokes on this board, my dad was really a dentist.

A backhand dox slap followed by another humblebrag. Acting like a chode will get you far in this place!

Welcome!

[summit]

I still don’t understand why we need taxpayer funded post high school vocational programs as it seems most of those skills programs are just industry passing along training costs to the taxpayer instead of what was traditionally a training expense or is something an apprenticeship training program can address.

Totally different than a university?

Like how teachers now need a fucking masters degree to teach first grade?

Or you need a bachelors degree to be an office secretary?

Or hospital based 3 year nursing programs have been replaced by 4 year BSN programs?

Or physical therapy is now is a doctoral program to enter practice instead of a masters or bachelors?

The list goes on and on.

Creeping Credentialism inflates demand for college degrees as the necessity of student debt to be gainfully employed professionals... or in employment that was previously considered semi-skilled white collar vocation is now a 4 year degree minimum (but it doesn't matter what kind).

It is possible to do first because of a culture of "thou shalt go to college if you want a 'real' job" culture combined with "The College Experience (tm)" culture. HR realizing they can lever that culture to demand students take on debt to train in the form of college loans. They can do this because students are desparate for success, encultured to accept college as the gateway, AND they are guaranteed to get the loans for whatever price the colleges decide to charge (which correlates to loan availability). Colleges work with industry to close down shorter programs, associate programs, and vocational programs in favor of "industry standards" for higher degrees.

Creeping credentialism occurs without significantly increasing outcomes in a way that matches the increased time and cost of education. Sometimes, there is debate as to whether there is any measurable improvement in outcomes when associate minimums become 4 year, or 4 year because 6 or 7!!!

The only guarantee is that unfettered access to huge unsecured nondischargable student loans by government policy guarantees that tuition rises outpacing inflation and so does student debt because colleges compete on almost everything except cost controls.

[fastfred]

I can’t even tell if this is a troll account or not so I’m going to stop now

seems like tgr's biggest insufferable cunt is back until he gets banned again should only take a few more posts before he goes off the rails (not benny, but who really knows)
took me a bit of drunked stupidity and I put two and two together last night

So dear dr adirondak can you change your name to dr addy
I'll be in marble in a few days to take naked photos of myself in front of the crystal mill like everyone else does this time of year to post on the gram and facebook to show how rad I am and how baller colorado is
we should get together have dinner we can hit up the bbq joint or have a pinic on the lake either way you are buying I'll provide the therapy session at 95 an hr you can just venmo me the money once we are done I'll help you get your delusional shit together it's not hard I was there once but now I'm doing real good

[oldnew_guy]

Totally different than a university?

Like how teachers now need a fucking masters degree to teach first grade?

Or you need a bachelors degree to be an office secretary?

Or hospital based 3 year nursing programs have been replaced by 4 year BSN programs?

Or physical therapy is now is a doctoral program to enter practice instead of a masters or bachelors?

The list goes on and on.

Creeping Credentialism inflates demand for college degrees as the necessity of student debt to be gainfully employed professionals... or in employment that was previously considered semi-skilled white collar vocation is now a 4 year degree minimum (but it doesn't matter what kind).

It is possible to do first because of a culture of "thou shalt go to college if you want a 'real' job" culture combined with "The College Experience (tm)" culture. HR realizing they can lever that culture to demand students take on debt to train in the form of college loans. They can do this because students are desparate for success, encultured to accept college as the gateway, AND they are guaranteed to get the loans for whatever price the colleges decide to charge (which correlates to loan availability). Colleges work with industry to close down shorter programs, associate programs, and vocational programs in favor of "industry standards" for higher degrees.

Creeping credentialism occurs without significantly increasing outcomes in a way that matches the increased time and cost of education. Sometimes, there is debate as to whether there is any measurable improvement in outcomes when associate minimums become 4 year, or 4 year because 6 or 7!!!

The only guarantee is that unfettered access to huge unsecured nondischargable student loans by government policy guarantees that tuition rises outpacing inflation and so does student debt because colleges compete on almost everything except cost controls.

MultiVerse,

Multiple people in this thread have said we shouldn’t have student debt relief unless we do <insert financially responsible Congressional action of choice>, actions which are not possible in the current political climate.

Vocational training can be handled with OJT, union apprenticeship and industry training programs. I in fact agree that many jobs that “require” a college degree in fact do not and can be addressed with OJT via the employer. Employers would prefer to externalize those costs to the taxpayer however.

I’ll let Buster expound on the inherent value of a college education beyond how many dollars you can trade it for as he has so eloquently before.

I’ll just quote myself.

[Mustonen]

,


Vocational training can be handled with OJT, union apprenticeship and industry training programs. I in fact agree that many jobs that “require” a college degree in fact do not and can be addressed with OJT via the employer. Employers would prefer to externalize those costs to the taxpayer however.

If we make vocational training the job of employers, then we turn our largest employers into universities and limit the opportunity of smaller employers. My employer is medium-sized, and training lift is significant and what you describe is barely within our grasp, if we had to. I’m not sure putting small to mid size businesses further outside of the employment marketplace is a good idea, or that we want to entrust our large employers with so much and the inevitable indoctrination that will come with it.

Not that I don’t see a reasonable middle ground, but this lives in the same place as health insurance for me, in that I don’t see the benefit to society in making this something we expect employers to fund. While it initially smacks of a capitalist ideal, I think it accomplishes the opposite by limiting opportunity for smaller enterprises.

[MultiVerse]

I’ll just quote myself.

"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this." is not a good argument....

[Mustonen]

"We must do something. This is something {Add} that brings us closer to our goals and the alternative in our current political climate is to do nothing {/Add}. Therefore, we should do this." is in fact a good argument....

FIFY

Letting great become the enemy of good will stifle all progress, and everybody will lose.

[MultiVerse]

I don't that's the case this time around, arguing in favor of the current proposal makes the problem worse. I do think this is good politics and perhaps the best thing that could happen for the Biden administration is for this to be struck down by the courts.

[jackstraw]

Over the last fifty years college costs have accelerated 3X faster than the rate of inflation. In spite of accelerating costs however, the nature of a college degree hasn't changed all that much and access to higher education has barely increased.

So you're saying it's the Universities fault, which seems fair based on what you've stated above. I don't know the reasons for that 3x increase? When I look at our business, it's payroll. So I'll assume one of their largest expenses is payroll. UNH as an example, the president makes 455k, a fair number of professors in the low six digit range and the vast majority under 100k. I cannot imagine getting anyone to work those jobs for much less. Maybe the admin can be cut? IDK. So then what's next on the cutting block? I'm sure many public schools are old and have needed major infrastructure repairs and new buildings. I guess I'm failing to comprehend your solution. Aside from somehow cutting costs, which I'm sure can be achieved to a certain extent, I'm just not sure to the level in which you could make college affordable to the average person.

I think, and it's probably not popular with many, but the wealthy should pay more taxes and we should fund public universities much more than we do. I'm personally overpaid, an idiot, and with trumptards tax cut I made quite a bit more money and paid less in taxes than the previous year. It was absurd. So the answer is take those savings and donate to a specific cause, correct? And that's great, but how many actually do and what percent of donations actually help society as a whole as opposed to targeting one specific cause.

I don't know, I'm just happy that some people are getting some help. Is it a band-aid where a tourniquet is needed, sure.

[MultiVerse]

The money is being funneled towards bureaucrats, buildings, and student services instead of instruction and increasing enrollment. For example, a few decades ago spending on administration was about a quarter of total costs while instructional spending accounted for nearly half. Now the numbers are reversed, administrative spending accounts for nearly half of all college costs and instructional spending accounts for about a quarter. There's a lot of bloat throughout the system owing to the gusher of student loan money.

[Mustonen]

I don't that's the case this time around, arguing in favor of the current proposal makes the problem worse. I do think this is good politics and perhaps the best thing that could happen for the Biden administration is for this to be struck down by the courts.

Why? Because of some vague concern about deepening class warfare?

I mean, it isn’t so because you say it’s so…. Outside of ethics and morality and other subjective philosophies there isn’t much to hang any real objection on. We are paying no matter what. Shifting around who pays for something that is a benefit to society seems reasonable. If anything, this is an economic net positive as we reduce servicing overhead irrespective of loosening up the financial situation of those it helps.

[Mustonen]

The money is being funneled towards bureaucrats, buildings, and student services instead of instruction and increasing enrollment.

Ah. More vague allegations.

And, like, sure….Maybe. But that’s just an argument for forgiving more of the debt/cost.

[MultiVerse]

Vague? I provided details. Also, your argument is circular. How can you not see that?

Why? Because of some vague concern about deepening class warfare?

It's not vague at all, the main reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

Colleges are spending the money on amenities and selectivity instead of instruction and increasing enrollment because the former helps improve their rankings while the latter does not.

[jackstraw]

The money is being funneled towards bureaucrats, buildings, and student services instead of instruction and increasing enrollment. For example, a few decades ago spending on administration was about a quarter of total costs while instructional spending accounted for nearly half. Now the numbers are reversed, administrative spending accounts for nearly half of all college costs and instructional spending accounts for about a quarter. There's a lot of bloat throughout the system owing to the gusher of student loan money.

It's the damn computers, software, and IT staff. Make Bill Gates pay.

[Mustonen]

Vague? I provided details. Also, your argument is circular. How can you not see that?

It’s only circular if you’re simple about it. You’re conflating several different issues and railing against any solution that doesn’t address all of them at once. That isn’t reasonable, and it isn’t how the world works. Even the best version of the world doesn’t work like that.

It's not vague at all, the main reason we're in this mess with student loans to begin with is the gusher of student loan money essentially removes any incentive for colleges to do anything about costs. As a result the gains from attending college are increasingly going to people who come from affluent families.

Colleges are spending the money on amenities and selectivity instead of instruction and increasing enrollment because the former helps improve their rankings while the latter does not.

I thought it was admin staff and bureaucrats? Or is it whatever suits your argument in the moment?

[MultiVerse]

I it was admin staff and bureaucrats? Or is it whatever suits your argument in the moment?

My argument is grounded in reality and cold hard truth. Admin staff and bureaucrats are among the examples of bloat, not the only examples. But you already knew that which means you're arguing in bad faith. What's the point of doing that?

If colleges and universities are going to take tax payer money then they need to increase admissions rates, focus more on instruction, and have more accountability for their costs.

[::: :::]

There's a lot of bloat throughout the system owing to the gusher of student loan money.

There’s also a lot of sociology at work via marketing & prestige based on setting prices at a premium to pretend at better status, only to discount tuition to some level to entice students to attend. Particularly in the private college world.

[MultiVerse]

Yeah, private colleges are raising the bar in terms of costs with public colleges then following suit. This is what the inflation rate looks like over the past fifty years:

........Private Schools: +1,700%
.........Public Schools: +1,500%
Overall U.S. Inflation: +550%

[Mustonen]

My argument is grounded in reality and cold hard truth. Admin staff and bureaucrats are among the examples of bloat, not the only examples. But you already knew that which means you're arguing in bad faith. What's the point of doing that?

If colleges and universities are going to take tax payer money then they need to increase admissions rates, focus more on instruction, and have more accountability for their costs.

I’m mostly pointing out that you continue to conflate bogeymen. Sure, there’s bloat. Let’s address that (and the EO explicitly attempts to address that) but there are a myriad of factors driving rising costs, and not all of them are easy financing. And your tenuous argument in re: class warfare, which as far as I can tell is your primary rail against loan forgiveness if only because none of your other arguments really make sense as arguments against that particular action, is far from grounded in cold hard facts….

Yeah, private colleges are raising the bar in terms of costs with public colleges then following suit. This is what the inflation rate looks like over the past fifty years:

........Private Schools: +1,700%
.........Public Schools: +1,500%
Overall U.S. Inflation: +550%

…. Anymore than pointing out that costs have not risen in lockstep with inflation is an issue at all, much less the issue we are addressing. US inflation is an average. Surely you are aware. Some costs increase, some costs decrease.

[Sirshredalot]

There’s also a lot of sociology at work via marketing & prestige based on setting prices at a premium to pretend at better status, only to discount tuition to some level to entice students to attend. Particularly in the private college world.

I think there's also a lot of confusion in this discussion, in general. The fact that Dartmouth or Cal Tech is nominally 60 grand per year these days is irrelevant. The truly-elite private schools don't even give out loan-based financial aid packages by more: it's all grants. The fact that they've got plush student union buildings and too many jerkoff vice provosts is entirely irrelevant.

Beyond that, I think a lot of people here had very rich daddys, did kind of okay at some private prep school, and then got a BA in bong hits at Bennington before going to a third-tier law school, all on daddy's dime. It is now a lot harder to do that for your own kids or grandchildren because it's more expensive. From a social perspective, this might be a good thing. This sort of glass floor for WASPy slackers doesn't need to exist at all. And this experience is not what college is like for most people - not in the least. The sort of regionally-reputable private schools where the local gentry can send their not-terribly-gifted child are having trouble controlling costs and maintaining relevance, but these schools are tiny and do not matter from a public policy perspective. Frankly, it makes me sad to see these places close because I enjoy bong hits and rural New England more than most, but I'd never send my kid there for a BA and six figures of debt: it's just a bad value proposition.

A median college experience might be to live with mom and dad, work full time at a shitty job, take community college classes, and then transfer to Cal Poly, fund the final two years with debt, and pray to God that there will be employment available that justifies the loans when you finish. Another typical college experience over the past twenty-thirty years is to grow up around very few people who have completed college, finish high school, work at a dead-end job. Then you see the ITT ad on TV, and get tricked or defrauded by it, only realizing that you've been scammed after a full year. Then you drop out with a year's worth of debt an no credential.

Have a little perspective guys. If any of you make any more comments that would be irrelevant to a student at salt lake community college or Cal State, I'm sending you to the corner with the dunce cap.

Sent from my Pixel 5a using Tapatalk

[MultiVerse]

And your tenuous argument in re: class warfare, which as far as I can tell is your primary rail against loan forgiveness if only because none of your other arguments really make sense as arguments against that particular action, is far from grounded in cold hard facts…..

If only my argument were tenuous and not the situation for most kids. Nearly half of all kids who attend college don't graduate. Kids and their families are taking on big debt loads with nothing to show for it because they believe that's the only way they can get ahead in America. It's a real problem and it takes willful ignorance not to see it.

…. Anymore than pointing out that costs have not risen in lockstep with inflation is an issue at all, much less the issue we are addressing. US inflation is an average. Surely you are aware. Some costs increase, some costs decrease.

Huh? The issue is the ever increasing rate of college costs. Surely you can see that if college costs are increasing at a rate three times faster than the average of everything else, that's a problem right? Are you trying to argue the high cost of attending college isn't a problem?