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  1. #1
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    Student Loan Forgiveness

    Not trying to go polyass, and I know most of you old geezers are too old to be directly affected.

    I donít have much student debt, but still have a small balance that would mostly get wiped out by $10k in forgiveness if I ended up qualifying. Iíve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, letís do it.

    From an economics perspective, seems like a broad brush way to circulate a little more cash. Is that what we need right now? Does this really keep families from going under? Open up new opportunities?

    Itís obviously not really equitable. Iím not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didnít get the benefit feels hollow, but valid all the same.

    Anyways. I donít know how to think about it, and without a 200 page thread of bickering on TGR how am I supposed to ever figure it out?

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    focus.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Not trying to go polyass, and I know most of you old geezers are too old to be directly affected.

    I donít have much student debt, but still have a small balance that would mostly get wiped out by $10k in forgiveness if I ended up qualifying. Iíve held off on paying that off ever since this has been in the wind. From that perspective, sure, letís do it.

    From an economics perspective, seems like a broad brush way to circulate a little more cash. Is that what we need right now? Does this really keep families from going under? Open up new opportunities?

    Itís obviously not really equitable. Iím not sure it has to be. The whining from those that due to timing or paying off early didnít get the benefit feels hollow, but valid all the same.

    Anyways. I donít know how to think about it, and without a 200 page thread of bickering on TGR how am I supposed to ever figure it out?

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    So should the folks who worked their way through school with no debt or learned a trade be upset about people having their debt forgiven?


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  3. #3
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    Of course it’s not equitable

    That’s the point. Forgive debt for masters degree in basket weaving to make them lifelong voters.

  4. #4
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    There is a nice 5 page thread on this that was bumped this morning. It is hilarious to imagine this is not a polyass topic when it is a governmental policy action and highly political.

    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...lace-your-bets!!!!!

    I don't think forgiveness is the ethical thing for the government to do. It does not promote equality. It favors those who have gone to college and by definition are going to be higher earners while leaving out in the cold those who favored fiscal responsibility when thus pursuing education. None of these things play well in Peoria, as literally everyone else then pays for this. Student Loan forgiveness seems like a progressive cause that is actually a trap. So will the Dems throw themselves on such a grenade?

    It's a one time hand wave transferring the debt of the still indebted (petit) bourgeoise to the general public. It doesn't help the rich or the poor, nor the middle class tradespeople or those who already paid off their debt. Why is forgiving that set of borrowers more proper than canceling some car loans?

    This does absolutely zilch to solve the underlying issues of runaway costs in higher ed. It is also insane to print a bunch more money (this is a targeted stimulus) when we are launching interest rates towards the sky to combat inflation.

    MIDTERMS!
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    There is a nice 5 page thread on this that was bumped this morning. It is hilarious to imagine this is not a polyass topic when it is a governmental policy action and highly political.

    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...lace-your-bets!!!!!

    I don't think forgiveness is the ethical thing for the government to do. It does not promote equality. It favors those who have gone to college and by definition are going to be higher earners while leaving out in the cold those who favored fiscal responsibility when thus pursuing education. None of these things play well in Peoria, as literally everyone else then pays for this. Student Loan forgiveness seems like a progressive cause that is actually a trap. So will the Dems throw themselves on such a grenade?

    It's a one time hand wave transferring the debt of the still indebted (petit) bourgeoise to the general public. It doesn't help the rich or the poor, nor the middle class tradespeople or those who already paid off their debt. Why is forgiving that set of borrowers more proper than canceling some car loans?

    This does absolutely zilch to solve the underlying issues of runaway costs in higher ed. It is also insane to print a bunch more money (this is a targeted stimulus) when we are launching interest rates towards the sky to combat inflation.

    MIDTERMS!
    Well said. Iím all for a program for free or low cost education at some point, but Iím not okay with wiping the slate clean for current debtors. I have two kids in college right now.


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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    So should the folks who worked their way through school with no debt or learned a trade be upset about people having their debt forgiven?


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    No, they shouldn't be upset but whining is so....today. Whiners make me cringe. We make choices. Working for tuition provides more value than just the money. I was a waiter in the frat house bar. $3/hr plus $1500 in loans to pay the $1200 tuition. Had to work 2 years at $50k/yr. in 2022 dollars with my AS degree to buy a new Mustang. 4 years to buy a house. Life is not fair. Sorry you were born too late. Fix it.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  7. #7
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    Anyone have some numbers they would like to inject into the conversation or should we keep shooting from the hip?

    Anecdotally, I know several people with student loan debt and no degree. 10k in forgiveness won't solve all their problems but it will certainly help.

    The old fucks sold my generation on an American dream that isn't a reality. I think you could pay up now and foster a bit of good will when you're asking us to pay your SS and Medicare in 10+ years.

    My wife and I are happily debt free, the states of California and Maryland, the Dept. of Education, and NIH paid our bills.

  8. #8
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    next you are going to expect free health care, this is America god damn it !
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  9. #9
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    Iíll just throw this option into the mix:

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    I think the student loan issue is pretty messy, and pretty complicated, but this seems like one of the better options Iíve seen proposed.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    So should the folks who worked their way through school with no debt or learned a trade be upset about people having their debt forgiven?


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    Yes, they should be very upset.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    There is a nice 5 page thread on this that was bumped this morning. It is hilarious to imagine this is not a polyass topic when it is a governmental policy action and highly political.

    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...lace-your-bets!!!!!

    I don't think forgiveness is the ethical thing for the government to do. It does not promote equality. It favors those who have gone to college and by definition are going to be higher earners while leaving out in the cold those who favored fiscal responsibility when thus pursuing education. None of these things play well in Peoria, as literally everyone else then pays for this. Student Loan forgiveness seems like a progressive cause that is actually a trap. So will the Dems throw themselves on such a grenade?

    It's a one time hand wave transferring the debt of the still indebted (petit) bourgeoise to the general public. It doesn't help the rich or the poor, nor the middle class tradespeople or those who already paid off their debt. Why is forgiving that set of borrowers more proper than canceling some car loans?

    This does absolutely zilch to solve the underlying issues of runaway costs in higher ed. It is also insane to print a bunch more money (this is a targeted stimulus) when we are launching interest rates towards the sky to combat inflation.

    MIDTERMS!
    Sorry, I donít go to PAH. My version of the app doesnít allow it and I find Iím ok with that. And I disagree that itís hilarious to imagine that this doesnít have to be a political discussion. There are relative merits to any idea or proposal that donít have to be partisan.

    This one in particular doesnít seem to break that cleanly across partisan lines in casual discussion. Just anecdotally, some very progressive democrats I know hate the idea and some very conservative republicans are all for it, and it doesnít correlate 100% with whether or not theyíll benefit.

    There are certainly better ways to improve the financial posture of large groups of people. But this one could potentially be pretty easy. Good is good, right? Is the best way to fight inflation really to avoid providing relief to people who are struggling?
    focus.

  12. #12
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    Forgive the debt on what is about to be free, 2 year community college (possibly and 4 year state college) and reduce most of it on what's gone sky high within the past 20 years should it get better regulated and costs drop..

    Seems fair... But wouldn't it also be fair to repay folks who DID pay all that back as well? Perhaps a massive tax credit good for eons until they also get reimbursed for what we're now giving other people for free??


    Or, free stuff for my kids and fuck you suckers to everyone else who's college and student loans are already fully paid in full?

    LOL!!

    FWIW, as mentioned in the polyass thread already.. I think both healthcare and education (and financing therof) need to be removed from for profit status and should have prices and usury rates regulated..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  13. #13
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    I chose a job/career that offered both tuition reimbursement early on, and now loan repayment. Parents need to educate their kids that four year degrees at 20k/year need to be reconciled at some point. Kids need to either go to trade school or community college first, then last two years at four year if needed.

    Most four year degrees are a joke. Infact, our entire culture surrounding education is a joke. We all learn very little in school, and learn it all on the job (for the most part).

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    ....

    I don't think forgiveness is the ethical thing for the government to do. It does not promote equality. ....
    And yet the gov't in the last year forgave $400bil in PPP loans with notoriously lax overisght--with many of those businesses reporting record profits in tha last year. Nary a peep from either political party about that.

    So it doesn't seem that equality or ethical goodness of forgiveness is the determing factor. The question is who gets free federal government is a question of who benefits from it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC. View Post
    Yes, they should be very upset.
    I won't be. But I'm still pretty salty about the 2008 TARP bailouts.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    I chose a job/career that offered both tuition reimbursement early on, and now loan repayment. Parents need to educate their kids that four year degrees at 20k/year need to be reconciled at some point. Kids need to either go to trade school or community college first, then last two years at four year if needed.

    Most four year degrees are a joke. Infact, our entire culture surrounding education is a joke. We all learn very little in school, and learn it all on the job (for the most part).
    Kids' brains don't fully develop the part that assess risks and consequences fully until about age 25. It's no coincidence that the military prefers soldiers of the age where that level of maturity and decision making hasn't been reached.

    Way easier to convince very young adults to storm the beach at Normandy than fully mature adults..

    And, they are also prime targets for predatory lenders... So here we are.. Either storm the beach for college money or bend over unless you're the fortunate son..
    Go that way really REALLY fast. If something gets in your way, TURN!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    So should the folks who worked their way through school with no debt or learned a trade be upset about people having their debt forgiven?
    I took all the federal loans I could get. Worked through 4 years of college at an elite (e.g. expensive) university. Paid off my last student loan last month -- 12 years after graduating.

    I would not be upset in the slightest to see loans forgiven. Many of my friends kneecapped by student debt could finally save and buy a damn house, put money away for retirement, and afford to have the kid theyve been dreaming of. The fed gov't wastes more fucking money on military spending and biz bailouts on an annual basis. Like bandini I save my salt for shit like TARP, PPP and other subsidies to billionaire leeches.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    Iíll just throw this option into the mix:

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	102 
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ID:	414976

    I think the student loan issue is pretty messy, and pretty complicated, but this seems like one of the better options Iíve seen proposed.
    Thatís brilliant.

    Instead of using fed money to pay all your debt, just pay for zero interest amortization. Also removing prior interest if weíre feeling generous.

    Complete wipeout is crazy.

  19. #19
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    The military prefers 18-25 year olds because they generally have an untrained aerobic heart rate around 160. They can sustain a pretty physically grueling profession with less overuse injuries than 28-35 year olds. Additionally they generally have less family obligations and non careerists can still transition to a full civilian career after service. If we could park 28-35 year old maturity and decision making into those 18-26 year old bodies we would in a heartbeat, and have a more lethal fighting force for it. Please don’t make up dumb statements.

    For actual numbers so far the payment/interest deferrals have benefited those debt holders without a degree around $3200 in stimulus, while providing around $50,000 of additional tax payer stimulus to those holding graduate degrees. You know MBAs, JDs, MDs, the folks making hundreds of thousands in urban areas. Basically it’s been here is $50k of tax payer money to go inflate the housing market.

    Student loan forgiveness is a repackaged Trump tax cut for millennials, except it doesn’t help poor folks as much.

    A college degree remains the most valuable asset in the United States, and has the highest return on investment over a lifetime. It is also currently not available to many Americans for non financial reasons. Subsidized higher education is basically a tax on low wage earners to give higher wage earners more free cash flow. That taxpayer money would probably be better spent trying to fix our struggling K-12 education until we can get more Americans qualified for college at age 18.

  20. #20
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    Student Loan Forgiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Cisco Kid View Post
    No, they shouldn't be upset but whining is so....today. Whiners make me cringe. We make choices. Working for tuition provides more value than just the money. I was a waiter in the frat house bar. $3/hr plus $1500 in loans to pay the $1200 tuition. Had to work 2 years at $50k/yr. in 2022 dollars with my AS degree to buy a new Mustang. 4 years to buy a house. Life is not fair. Sorry you were born too late. Fix it.
    Born too late? Iím 54 and have two twenty something girls in college.

    If you read my post, it was a question and I didnít make any judgment. Definitely not whining.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    I took all the federal loans I could get. Worked through 4 years of college at an elite (e.g. expensive) university. Paid off my last student loan last month -- 12 years after graduating.

    I would not be upset in the slightest to see loans forgiven. Many of my friends kneecapped by student debt could finally save and buy a damn house, put money away for retirement, and afford to have the kid theyve been dreaming of. The fed gov't wastes more fucking money on military spending and biz bailouts on an annual basis. Like bandini I save my salt for shit like TARP, PPP and other subsidies to billionaire leeches.
    Iíd have to assume student debt forgiveness, like every other money printing endeavor, will just lead to higher asset prices/ more expensive houses, so not sure the ďthey can finally afford a houseĒ dream is going to pan out.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SumJongGuy View Post
    Kids' brains don't fully develop the part that assess risks and consequences fully until about age 25. It's no coincidence that the military prefers soldiers of the age where that level of maturity and decision making hasn't been reached.

    Way easier to convince very young adults to storm the beach at Normandy than fully mature adults..
    I'd say more like late 30s for men...maybe 40's for me. I flunked out of Montana State twice and finally bailed to live in Yosemite for the summer. Hyalite Canyon and Bridger were the only reasons I attended MSU.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyCarter View Post
    Iíd have to assume student debt forgiveness, like every other money printing endeavor, will just lead to higher asset prices/ more expensive houses, so not sure the ďthey can finally afford a houseĒ dream is going to pan out.
    Thatís probably true, an additional outcome could be increased family formation, child birth and business starts

  24. #24
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    Seems pretty unfair to me. I know a guy who went into to debt to own a subway franchise. Fairness says we should bail him too. Actually lots of people have debt. Come to think, there's also lot's of people who responsibly chose to avoid debt, or gave up something to pay it back.

    If there's some specific problems with the loan programs, sure, let's fix those. One I've read is there's various programs to forgive debt in exchange for 10 years in specific fields like teaching. Due to government bureaucracy, and the mix of public/private loan programs, folks who thought they did everything right are actually not qualified. While "fixing" any such problems, we should be careful not to create undue retrospective giveaways.

    I've attended a number of colleges, and all have had an extraordinary number of students pursuing degrees in fields with low economic value. Forgiving loans on these degrees promotes poor decision-making and damages our economic competitiveness.

    For people getting stuck in debt traps, bankruptcy reform seems a better solution.

    Most people did not attend college. Forgiving debt for this generally better off class of people smells like a political stinker to me.

  25. #25
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    I could have done it but I was too lazy so I didnt go & went right into business instead but i remember saying to a young paddle bud I didn't even know what I would study if I went to university ?

    his words of wisdom were " you don't worry about that you just pick a place to go "
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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