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  1. #1
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    Feb 2014
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    WWMD: Dealer Title Fraud

    We bought a car this winter, certified pre-owned from a large regional dealer. Friends and family have used them without any issues. At the time, there was a weird jump in mileage on the carfax but it it went back to what it was supposed to be on a later reporting. We didn't think much of it at the time, we should have.

    Permanent tags are taking too long to get to us even with covid excuses, so while in the area for a different reason I stop at the dealer to politely ask what the fuck is going on. Two months at this point and not a peep from the dealer that there is any sort of issue.

    General manager sat me down, admitted fault, and then told me a yarn about how they have tried and failed to get the DMV to fix the title to the correct mileage, and at this point there are no options left to fix the current car/title. The error in mileage devalues the car by ~30%.

    He offers me:

    1. We sign paperwork accepting the car as is. He will put in writing a standing offer to buy the car back from us at book based on the odometer mileage and shipped at his expense anywhere in the continental US.

    2. We return the car and receive cost/tax/fees back and can go on our merry way..

    3. New vehicle from the same dealer, conditions unspecified.

    Our thoughts:

    1. Is clearly bullshit. We like the car/model/year and would probably keep it after a thorough independent inspection if they paid us the difference in value. I don't expect to be receiving any cash but would not be upset if things worked out this way.

    2. Coincidentally, we financed the same amount as what is wiped out from mileage error. No response yet if he would also pay us the interest, there are no early closing fees. A huge PITA to find another vehicle. Even more annoying would be opening a new line of credit with a now higher rate. We have plenty of cash on hand but had other plans for using it.

    3. I think this is the most likely solution. I plan to stick firm on not giving them any more money and receiving the same model w/ same or newer year and same or lower mileage. Part of the reason we didn't walk from the original deal is because we had been looking for this specific model and year for a while. We bought the last year of the previous generation to avoid some of the growing pains of the newer generation. If we received a newer car, it will be from the first or second year of the new generation. I don't have specifics on how a newer vehicle will change my insurance rates but I know it will be more expensive to register when we move.

    We have already talked to our insurance. I have plans to meet with an attorney but would like to avoid over complicating if the dealer is willing to play ball. Is there anything else I'm missing? I found all this out on the 23rd, we are moving May 29th. I plan to give them a deadline of May 12 to have everything resolved.

  2. #2
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    I would go with number two. They’ve already proven themselves untrustworthy. No sense in taking any more chances with these people.

  3. #3
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    Get a refund of your purchase price, shop elsewhere.

    You got use of a vehicle for a period of time, which has some value. Did you have to put any $ into the car? (tires, whatever)
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  4. #4
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    Sep 2006
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    Buying cars is a fiasco right now. If yours is a cheap state to title a car then maybe you won't be out a bunch of money on option number 2 and could consider it as having had a free rental car for the last couple months. Other than your obvious disappointment and the inconvenience, no harm no foul, right?
    Brandine: Now Cletus, if I catch you with pig lipstick on your collar one more time you ain't gonna be allowed to sleep in the barn no more!
    Cletus: Duly noted.

  5. #5
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    Mar 2006
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    #2, but I want to hear what Bobby Stainless has to say.
    I still call it The Jake.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    What is stated(advertised) mileage vs. actual mileage ? Did you not check the odometer when you looked at the car and bought it ? IF the odometer was tampered in any way that's a big offense for a car dealer.
    CPO from manufacturer or the dealership ? IF it's dealership CPO it doesn't mean anything.
    Possibly get the dealership to either pay the difference in value if you like the car and/or ask for nation wide warranty(do some research and pick a decent company) the dealership pays.
    I would have a clear and info driven letter ready to send the state attorney general's office in hand and show the dealership you're not fucking around and try to work it out since getting a car is a PITA right now.

  7. #7
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    To add:

    Option 1 gives you a piece of paper that says that this manager will do something, possibly that the dealership will do something to make it right in the future.

    For the price of some printer toner, paper and a promise he gets to make the problem go away. Fast forward a year from now when some other issue arises with the car and you present the standing offer (no idea what that would actually look like) to the dealer, and they say to you, "oh yeah Mike, he's not here anymore and we won't honor that", or even, "sorry we can't honor that".

    What you have then is a car with an issue and a new lawsuit to prosecute, which will apparently be from farther away now that you're moving.

    Cut bait now while you can.
    I still call it The Jake.

  8. #8
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    Oct 2008
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    valley of the heart's delight
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    Sounds like you want the car. As you say, shopping for and buying another car is a pain in the ass, with weekends lost, etc. Is it a good car? Mechanically sound, safety systems intact, no accidents or properly repaired etc? Depending on how a car was treated, a 100k mile car may be better than a 25k mile car. And the car market is a shitshow now. Who knows when it will improve.

    Sorta curious how it ended up with the wrong mileage... Does the carfax show each mileage when services performed?

    Legally how much trouble is the dealer in and what they should or must do to fix their screwup.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Odometer reads 67xxx, title reads 155xxx.

    CPO is through the manufacturer.

    The only money we have into the car outside of the dealership is for our state's cash-grab inspection because they are across the state line.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatnslow View Post
    What is stated(advertised) mileage vs. actual mileage ? Did you not check the odometer when you looked at the car and bought it ? IF the odometer was tampered in any way that's a big offense for a car dealer.
    Yeah. What's the story there?

    Either way, odometer discrepancies can be a hudge ding on values so I'd prolly give the car back to them and get my money back. Only way I'd accept keeping it is if it was something REALLY special. Like a Volvo V70R 6MT or something similarly rare.

    What vehicle are we talking about, Ghost?

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  11. #11
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    From what we know the car is good, outside of the title issue. We no longer trust it and will have our local mechanic thoroughly go over it if were to go with option 1 plus cash.

    The dealer is fucked if we report them to the State's Attorney. 10k fee plus a slam dunk case for us, is how I read the law.

  12. #12
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    #2.

    There's other cars and sellers out there.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    Odometer reads 67xxx, title reads 155xxx.

    CPO is through the manufacturer.

    The only money we have into the car outside of the dealership is for our state's cash-grab inspection because they are across the state line.
    What the actual fuck.

    Night and day mileage.

    155k some cars are fine. Until they aren’t.
    CPO is great while it’s in effect.
    After that you will have a quarter million mile paperweight

    Run away. Or buy the newer model at hudge discount.

    I like the idea of writing a letter to the state attorney general alleging fraud.
    Don’t send it.
    Meet with the GM.

    Just slide it across the table.
    Let them read it.

    Then watch the expression.
    And bend them over on a newer car.

    PS. CPO never happens at 150k miles. The manufacturer might not honor it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    Odometer reads 67xxx, title reads 155xxx.

    CPO is through the manufacturer.

    The only money we have into the car outside of the dealership is for our state's cash-grab inspection because they are across the state line.
    wft ?????? Return that thing for a full refund . THEN report those fuckers ! You might also right a letter ready to go to the MFG if it is acutally a MFG CPO.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    At the time, there was a weird jump in mileage on the carfax but it it went back to what it was supposed to be on a later reporting.
    How does this happen unless someone was tampering with the Carfax data in between? This has red flags all over it.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  16. #16
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    Name:  8E587DBC-6B6B-4FF4-B33B-726FDBECDDAA.jpeg
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  17. #17
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    Final thought. There may have been a title change at 55k

    And some idiot at the DMV typed 155k

    Could be an honest mistake. But one a dealer should have known.

    Does the carfax show other info? Service or inspections?
    Right before the 155k there may have been a carfax entry for 50k a few months earlier. Thus showing it’s a DMV disaster. Those state employees suck more than used car dealers.

  18. #18
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    Option 2


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghosthop View Post
    Odometer reads 67xxx, title reads 155xxx.

    CPO is through the manufacturer.

    The only money we have into the car outside of the dealership is for our state's cash-grab inspection because they are across the state line.
    does the dealer fraud void the cpo warranty from the manufacturer? Many of those programs have a max mileage limitation to be a cpo. Which is to say - the manufacturer is probably interested in this fraud too, because they were also defrauded

  20. #20
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    What car ?

    an extra 88,000 miles is a lot of miles, I think I would just get my money back so #2

    that superspeeders guy is always on my FB youtube talking about the expensive exotics rental business, the Ferraris, lambo's, Mcclarens and buddy said he thinks almost all the used exotics he sees have had their odometers rolled back
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Core Shot View Post
    Final thought. There may have been a title change at 55k

    And some idiot at the DMV typed 155k

    Could be an honest mistake. But one a dealer should have known.

    Does the carfax show other info? Service or inspections?
    Right before the 155k there may have been a carfax entry for 50k a few months earlier. Thus showing it’s a DMV disaster. Those state employees suck more than used car dealers.
    I would be curious about this too. If all of the previous entries had the logical mileage, a sudden 100k mile jump does seem to be more likely to be a typo, but fixing it might not be trivial.

  22. #22
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    Feb 2014
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    Unfixable typo is what we're being told by the dealership. Judging from everyone we have dealt with, the mistake was caused because they are morons and not purposely malicious. It doesn't absolve their responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    How does this happen unless someone was tampering with the Carfax data in between? This has red flags all over it.
    First time ever buying from a dealership for my wife and I. We are both dirtbags at heart but have started making adult money and thought we would do the responsible thing with the kid on the way. Hell, this is my first car with an automatic transmission.

    We should have known better but buying a car right now is the worst and we had found what we wanted. My wife at least has much better things to do than talk with car dealers all day.

  23. #23
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    It sounds like you're trying to avoid option #2 because you don't want to go through the car shopping process again, but it's the right option.
    IMO dealers are for buying new cars, not used ones.

  24. #24
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    May 2016
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    Had a similar situation happen years ago. The windshield had 50K miles written on it, as did the bill of sale. But after driving it for a couple days I noticed the odometer actually read 150K.

    After some discussions with the dealer, they refunded the difference based on blue book values at the two different mileages. I was lucky the incorrect mileage was actually on the bill of sale, or I probably wouldn’t have gotten anything.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timberridge View Post
    How does this happen unless someone was tampering with the Carfax data in between? This has red flags all over it.
    Usually a mechanic inputs the mileage wrong and then it is corrected later by another mechanic. There are several places the odometer could have gotten the error. The guy who appraised the car and took it in on trade could have put down the wrong odometer. The guy who checks the used cars and trades into the dealership could have screwed up.

    Then you have the folks in finance who rely on the other two to give them the correct info but they are the ones who reported it to the state where it’s now on your title. Most problems at dealerships are due to incompetence not deceit.

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