Vail wants this image censored.

[jackattack]

Blah blah blah, do you know how often in bound slides happen at hills with real terrain that can slide? Over the years at Kirkwood I have observed no less than 10 inbounds slides. Some small, some massive. It is impossible to fully tame the dragon. To assume otherwise is just foolish. Failed to manage their terrain safely? Maybe ski in the Poconos if what you desire is 100% safety.

Nice assumptions there Ott.

So you’re in favor of censorship. Got it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Knowledge of avalanche hazard is highly local in regards to snowpack and terrain. An outside expert would probably rely on the ski area forecasters and snow safety professionals for guidance.

If safety protocols were violated during mitigation work that would be a different issue.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[baron]

Maybe ski in the Poconos if what you desire is 100% safety.

hehe...if someone sprays snow into a Gapers mouth, they may get Hepatitis !

[nickinbc]

Knowledge of avalanche hazard is highly local in regards to snowpack and terrain. An outside expert would probably rely on the ski area forecasters and snow safety professionals for guidance.

I would be very surprised if there aren't forecasters in the area who are not employed by the resort. Highways, Rail and industrial operations in the area all have avalanche hazards.

[Ottime]

Nice assumptions there Ott.

So you’re in favor of censorship. Got it.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I wrote. Maybe you were making, um, an assumption...

Based on what you wrote, you think terrain can be 100% safe if properly mitigated. You are wrong. Sorry. But thought you should know.

[Ottime]

I feel your pain. No wonder you're spitting bile, considering the suck ass year in California. But, really, when the fuck was I ever a Vail cheerleader?

Old dudes in spandex lose their memory. It was here on this board that you spouted the awesomeness of Vail. Right around the time they bought KW and fucked that resort.

And man, you should have been out here this week. Both KW and Mammoth are skiing insanely good right now, with bell to bell incredible conditions. What did you do last week? Sip coffee and watch Conn moms walk around in their yoga pants?

Sorry you are grumpy and often wrong. But check that brain out with the doc. You don't even remember your own posts.

[Ottime]

I would be very surprised if there aren't forecasters in the area who are not employed by the resort. Highways, Rail and industrial operations in the area all have avalanche hazards.

True. But a big difference between inbounds mitigate terrain and out of bounds mitigate terrain. They may add insight, but they will be asking the resort for historical data...

[abraham]

Is that from Instagram? The compression is terrible, I've been noticing that happening on some attached pictures. Especially with lots of text.

[hutash]

Last I checked it is still 2022, and photos are shared all over the innertubes instantly. If we all "wait for the official investigation " to be complete, George Floyd, Trayvon Marti and Brianna Taylor would not be household names.

Fuck governments and corporations who insist on controlling the narrative. No doubt this 'troller will get canned for this, but good on him for holding truth to power.

[Ottime]

Benny, I'm not gonna bother looking for your quotes. You posted up about your Vail multi resort pass and how awesome it was while you were a CO local, but what ever.

Glad you are out on the snow. And you are dead wrong about our CA winter. Was it a poor year for us. Sure. Was it bad. Hell, no. Was it so bad I had to get on a plane and fly across country to use my not Epic multi resort pass to get to decent snow. Not at all. As a recent transplant from Conn told me yesterday, this winter he had out skiing KW was better than any season he ever had back east. Personally, I think he is just stoked on the terrain, and not really thinking clearly about the snow. As I've seen better east coast seasons that what we had this year. But it was still fucking insanely fun every one of my meager 25 days so far this year and more than a handful were powder skiing, so, yeah, you totally have the CA snow scene figured out.

BTW, because I have not come out on the record, I'm totally fine with dude posting this on the inter web. And if he broke company policy, then he deserves the consequence. That is part of the deal when you are paid by someone else to do a job.

All in all, this is a big nothing burger. Inbound slides happen. Either from mitigation error, or more likely due to it being impossible to mitigate completely without bombing the snow off the mountain. If that scares you, and it should, wear a beacon, shovel and probe or ski the low angle until the snow gets packed down.

[paulster2626]

Boot-licker....

lol, was waiting for someone to say this. Get fucked, Tom Smykowski!

[Bunion 2020]

All in all, this is a big nothing burger. Inbound slides happen. Either from mitigation error, or more likely due to it being impossible to mitigate completely without bombing the snow off the mountain. If that scares you, and it should, wear a beacon, shovel and probe or ski the low angle until the snow gets packed down.

Avalanche mitigation is not a perfect science but I am also not willing to give every program a free pass just because shit happens, I have 33 years of avalanche mitigation experience (Ret.) and for 1/2 of that I was the guy who would have ended up on the witness stand.

[Ottime]

Agree, no free pass. Every inbound slide that occurs needs to be investigated, but there seems to be an assumption out there that is shit happens it is due to a mistake of the avi mitigation team. That is not always the case. Pushed too far, and we will see resorts begin to restrict more terrain and hold more terrain and bomb more terrain before they ever let us ski it.

[californiagrown]

Knowledge of avalanche hazard is highly local in regards to snowpack and terrain. An outside expert would probably rely on the ski area forecasters and snow safety professionals for guidance.

If safety protocols were violated during mitigation work that would be a different issue.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

I think the point of an "outside expert" would be to have it be a nuetral 3rd party who wouldnt be affected by outside pressures. Maybe its a 4 year tour of duty at that particular resort to try and ensure they arent making decisions to try and keep their job next year. No matter how much the snow safetey pros on the vail payroll (or any resort payroll) try to maintain pure decision making, they do have to balance getting terrain open and keeping the customer happy, along with keeping them alive. Its kinda like how the NFL puts neutral 3rd party doctors on the sidelines to look for concussive hits and symptoms even though all the Drs employed by the NFL teams have taken the hypocratic oath. Sounds like it could be a bureaucratic CF though.

It is interesting how different customer expectations are for terrain safety at these megaresorts with gnargnar, vs the expectation at my small hill (which has its fair share of gnargnar) where i avoided a couple unmarked deathtrap holes on completely inbounds often skied terrain yesterday. I also heard people talking about going back to their cars for their avi stuff in preparation for an inbounds rope drop because their expectation for safety is much lower than the average tourist visiting a megaresort. The kind of mitigation (avi, signage, ropes, holes, etc) that a tourist visiting Whistler expects, vs the kind of safety a tourist visiting W2HO for example is likely very different.

[Bunion 2020]

Agree, no free pass. Every inbound slide that occurs needs to be investigated, but there seems to be an assumption out there that is shit happens it is due to a mistake of the avi mitigation team. That is not always the case. Pushed too far, and we will see resorts begin to restrict more terrain and hold more terrain and bomb more terrain before they ever let us ski it.

Fair points.

Maybe some further education is required to educate the general skiing public that mistakes happen, avalanche mitigation is not a perfect science and there are very real risks involved even when skiing in controlled terrain. At many ski areas there is very visible signage at the bottom of all lifts declaring these risks and stating that if you are not willing to accept those risks you should not ski that terrain.

All in all considering the number of skiers entering terrain that is subject to avalanche hazard ski areas do a damn good job of reducing but not eliminating the hazard. There is a large segment of the skiing public that remain ignorant of what may be above them.

No matter how much the snow safety pros on the vail payroll (or any resort payroll) try to maintain pure decision making, they do have to balance getting terrain open and keeping the customer happy, along with keeping them alive.

Speaking only for myself and the forecasters I worked with we took it very personally (to the point of fuck off!) that we would not be pressured by management to open terrain before we felt we had minimized the hazards. Most pressure in that respect is internal and would be well addressed in another thread.

There are several other current and former SS pros who frequent this site and I would bet they all feel the same.

[old goat]

"SS Pro"? Bunion must be talking about Alta.

There was an article about snow safety at Alta and AM in Powder years ago--the issue with the iconic picture of AM's Beaver Bowl with a bunch of patrollers getting ready to bomb an enormous cornice after a storm. It describes the Alta mountain manager looking over the shoulder of the snow safety director at the route list for the day and telling him to cut down the number of shots--too much expensive explosive. The article doesn't say if the snow safety director did it. My guess is he didn't.

[californiagrown]

Speaking only for myself and the forecasters I worked with we took it very personally (to the point of fuck off!) that we would not be pressured by management to open terrain before we felt we had minimized the hazards. Most pressure in that respect is internal and would be well addressed in another thread.

There are several other current and former SS pros who frequent this site and I would bet they all feel the same.

I have no experience in the world you thrived in. The reason i brought up that point is that i see similarities in the heuristic traps super experienced BC skier fall into and the possible traps that SS pros could fall into, especially during a big snow year with stable pow days becoming routine, or a rough snow year with mounting pressure from management and coworkers about opening terrain to appease crowds, hints about how that could be connected to budget for the next year, etc. IDK, just looking for ways to reduce outside and internal influences that can affect decision making.


FWIW, i am extremely appreciative of teh work that patrol does, and i am fully aware that the inbounds terrain i ski on a powder day is NOT safe... But its one helluva lot safer than the OB terrain i would want to ski.

[Bunion 2020]

i see similarities in the heuristic traps super experienced BC skier fall into and the possible traps that SS pros could fall into,

Bingo!!!! We have a winner.

"SS Pro"? Bunion must be talking about Alta.

There was an article about snow safety at Alta and AM in Powder years ago--the issue with the iconic picture of AM's Beaver Bowl with a bunch of patrollers getting ready to bomb an enormous cornice after a storm. It describes the Alta mountain manager looking over the shoulder of the snow safety director at the route list for the day and telling him to cut down the number of shots--too much expensive explosive. The article doesn't say if the snow safety director did it. My guess is he didn't.

That MM/GM was probably the former SS Director.

Last place I worked the GM was the former PD/SS Dir and he was in for every early morning and the guy up top making the shots up for the rest of the teams. He wouldn't refuse more shots if we wanted them but he would ask if it sounded a little high, it was a very experienced crew.

OTOH During an exchange in Tahoe we were sent on route with the instruction, don't bring any shots back. Many areas with less experienced patrols have designated shot placements and they are expected to be shot, period.

[powdork]

Well, from what I know, and a lot I've learned reading this forum, is that Avi mitigation and study is still a very inexact science, so, one opinion is just that, one opinion, and a tad suspect if that person is being paid by the mountain he/she is studying.

I was making a joke as the employee in question and the subject of the whole thread seems to be the expert they should be consulting (if they actually had any interest in an actual investigation).

[doebedoe]

I have no experience in the world you thrived in. The reason i brought up that point is that i see similarities in the heuristic traps super experienced BC skier fall into and the possible traps that SS pros could fall into, ...

Agreed. The one difference I see between friends with several hundred days in the bc and SS pros I work with is that the pros are far more likely to use checklists and documented procedures be they route lists, documented field plans (and reviews), debriefs, etc.

[californiagrown]

Agreed. The one difference I see between friends with several hundred days in the bc and SS pros I work with is that the pros are far more likely to use checklists and documented procedures be they route lists, documented field plans (and reviews), debriefs, etc.

With patrol, is there a hierarchy with the decision making? On a tour, theoretically everybody gets an equal say which should theoretically lead to more conservative safer decision making as the safest option *should" gets skied. With patrol, if there is a heirarchy then that important safety check is removed... but without a hierarchy operations would likely become an inefficient mess.

And sorry if it comes off like im bagging on patrol, or accusing them of negligence. Im not. I do not think there is a director of SS out there that doesnt have safety of the patrol and public far and away their #1 priority.

[Bunion 2020]

It has not come across to me that you are bagging on anyone.

Gotta go make the donuts. Cya.

[old goat]

Bingo!!!! We have a winner.



That MM/GM was probably the former SS Director.

Last place I worked the GM was the former PD/SS Dir and he was in for every early morning and the guy up top making the shots up for the rest of the teams. He wouldn't refuse more shots if we wanted them but he would ask if it sounded a little high, it was a very experienced crew.

OTOH During an exchange in Tahoe we were sent on route with the instruction, don't bring any shots back. Many areas with less experienced patrols have designated shot placements and they are expected to be shot, period.

When my kid was a rookie at Squaw, as it was called at the time, he was assigned to base on a great powder day. His reward for not complaining was to be assigned the next day--another great powder day--to tower 16, which is a great, long powder run if you get there before the sun does. They did multiple laps in the cat, skiing down after each one. They used a LOT of shots that day--one day I counted over 30 bomb holes within a few hundred yards in that area, no doubt from the same "aggressive avalanche risk mitigation".

[TahoeJ]

I bet. Squaw alone has what, 300 slide paths or something like that?

[telefreewasatch]

Bunion 2020 speaks well.
As does Ottime.

To add:
Old goat: That's Hollywood for ya. Alta shoots more avy rounds on a given day than one can imagine. At $120 a pop that's kinda like a patrolman for the day per shot. Hand charges counting spitters are $15. Only reason to not use explosives is if there is a good chance one is wasting time, safety, and money in the face of incoming weather or stability.

C. grown: you raise some interesting points, but my experience had no hierarchy in opening terrain within a ss dept. One no from anyone is no about an opening. Didn't have to be scientific; gut feelings are sometimes worth more.
Never experienced pressure from up the ladder, only desire to stay in the loop.

We suffered an inbounds avy fatality on my watch a while back.
Don't wish that on any ski area. It's global news.
Investigations vary from country to country. In the US you bet there are investigations with pros from not just the ski resort assisting.

Most in bound fatalities happen upon the first opening of terrain for the season on a weak pack.
Lotta fingers get crossed around the west on those days.
Nice to make moguls from the dirt up but not always possible.

Working in a ss dept. is akin to driving;
Anyone going faster than you is an idiot, anyone going slower is a moron; can't please anyone.
The public knows more about ski area snow safety than the pros on powder days.