Vail wants this image censored.

[TahoeJ]

So you wouldn't call a huge wet slide an avalanche? Maybe started by a glide crack or wet snow coming off trees or rocks.

No, obviously I would... I still consider those a fracture most of the time if it's of any substantial size, but yeah, I guess no cohesive slab in that case. I've actually been in an inbounds wet-ish slide at Squaw, about 9-10 years ago down Headwall face. It was in early April and the snow was saturated so the whole thing was about 3 feet of slow moving wetness from a storm the previous night, with me riding on top on my ass and kind of laughing and waving to people above me on the lift (not to suggest wet slides can't be serious, but I was never in any real danger).

[old goat]

You don't know what you are talking about.
And the statement above is a dickhead one.
The best strategy for a Class A avalanche area is to let no snowflake go undisturbed.
Moguls from the dirt up.
By opening terrain when cover is scant one has a good chance for a solid pack the rest of the year.
I used to worry when we opened stuff on thin snow that we would see more head injuries.
Doesn't happen. Folks do better that I figured.
And head injuries are not global news...
This strategy is what prevents large old snow catastrophic avalanches.
When one is only dealing with new snow instability terrain should open more quickly and safely on account of the above.
However, when one feels the need to deal with every table top piece of NEW snow, the overall goal of skier compaction can be reduced resulting in larger inbound slides.
And we are, in my opinion, keeping the public from getting their fix in a timely fashion.

I am very aggressive about getting terrain open with new snow.
I am very conservative about getting terrain open with deep slab potential.
One cannot outsmart deep slab.

Point is that when we are hunting down every little "piece of snow" we lose sight of the big picture of overall in area stability. The public is the greatest tool we have to make the snow safe.

Every in bounds avy death I am aware of in our area -- I can think of 13 off the top of my head, including the 7 who died in the 1982 Alpine Meadows slide, was the result of a new snow avalanche. I have not heard of any inbounds slides involving deeper layers. So at least in our snowpack, which I believe is somewhat similar to Whistler's, the problem you are talking about--deep instability as a result of not getting terrain open after new snow--doesn't exist. The Rockies are different of course.

I'm sure you know far more about avalanche management than I do, but I still call BS on your claim that mislabeling events as avalanches has anything to do with the speed with which resorts get terrain open. Remember what this thread is about--Vail trying to suppress info about an avalanche. Sounds like the opposite of what you are claiming.

(As I type this I just heard the first bombs of the morning over at Sugar Bowl).

[powdork]

I can remember at least two times mammoth has slid huge when it was skied out and/or involved old snow
once in 2006
https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/t...d-LOTs-of-pics

and again in 2018
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bf7bIiInlL7/

[altasnob]

Employee housing run at Crystal (similar maritime snow pack) in April 2011. That's the biggest in bounds slide to ground I can think of in WA. Can't remember if the run was open or not when it slid. If I remember correctly, it was a warming event, not rain or new snow. No one died.







Sorry for crappy resolution of pics. Looks like Kim Kircher (who no longer works there as patrol) took down photos from her blog.

[telefreewasatch]

My intention was to start a discussion not about Whistler or California but about how the word avalanche affects people and the media.
In my career I have watched ski areas get more leery of lawsuits and bad press.
Even with new technology and more badass riders to help us with compaction, openings are
slower than they should be because of lawsuits and bad press.
And in area snow is less safe than it could be on account.
Maybe I should have started a new thread?
Oh, and today did not suck.

[TahoeJ]

I assume you're aware of the settlement that Alpine Meadows just had to do with a slide victim's family earlier this week? Slope had been bombed that morning. Rocky terrain in sort of a tight mini chute with lots of trigger points. I consider it a stash and had skied it the day before the incident. Now I wonder if they'll just close it off.

[old goat]

I'm surprised AM settled. I don't suppose the amount is public.
That's a pretty obscure, difficult run and anyone who would ski it would be well aware that avy control isn't 100%.

[brutah]

Aha, now we've finally figured out what ax you're grinding. You claim that by falsely calling incidents like this avalanches ski areas can justify taking longer to get stuff open. I claim BS. As evidenced by the fact that people do die in post control in bounds avalanches from time to time. And a significant number of those are patrollers BTW. So obviously they aren't controlling every small "piece of snow". (Is that a technical term?)

Sounds like you want to see more terrain open faster, at the price of more bodies. What's your number?

What ax are you grinding? Or do you just like to be a dickhead and start arguments?

I don't think any ski patroller wants any deaths on their hands. And I certainly haven't read anything from TFW that argues that for faster terrain openings at the cost of public safety.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[skifishbum]

dont mind the old blabber goat hes gonna make a dozen posts a day regardless of if he has any idea wtf hes postin about
tfw's thoughts are in tune with every snow safety professional i know

[altasnob]

In my career I have watched ski areas get more leery of lawsuits and bad press.
Even with new technology and more badass riders to help us with compaction, openings are
slower than they should be because of lawsuits and bad press.

In my skiing life, we've gone from closed boundaries to open boundaries or at least bc gates. And no terrain parks to terrain parks with features that less than 1% of the skiing public can properly hit. I have never been upset with slow opening of terrain. The limiting of factor for terrain opening doesn't appear to be avy danger but lack of snow or mechanical/wind holds of lifts (of course, every place is different).

It all comes down to marketing. A ski area wants to be known as a badass big mountain that attracts the best skiers. But they also don't want the clueless tourist to cancel their $30,000 ski week because an in-bounds avy killed someone.

I'm surprised AM settled.

Do ski areas ever take cases to trial? Their insurance company is the one who gets to decide whether to settle or not.

[old goat]

I don't think any ski patroller wants any deaths on their hands.
Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Agreed

In the last 15 years 3 patrollers have been killed doing snow safety at what is now Palisades Tahoe--1 at AM, 2 at OV. 2 died in avalanches, 1 in an explosion, most likely from trying to relight a charge that was still lit. Hard to argue that, at least at that resort, they aren't trying hard to get terrain open. And it is, or should be, a sobering thought for any skier to realize that someone died so that they could have fun.

[powdork]

My intention was to start a discussion not about Whistler or California but about how the word avalanche affects people and the media.
In my career I have watched ski areas get more leery of lawsuits and bad press.

I think some of it has to do with the typical timeline of a business. They all start with a dream or idea that hopefully blossoms into a reality. If that happens then you need an accounting and legal department and over time they invariably tend to exert more control. The beancounters see spending more $ to open faster as wasted money since it brings no obvious revenue and the suits look at the risk to employees and customers.
The best companies have someone at the helm that keeps these departments at bay to some degree. To many, it seems Palisades Tahoe saw a great improvement in openings and just the overall treatment of the riding public (as opposed to the Starbucks drinking public) when Andy Wirth was replaced.

[Bunion 2020]

Haven't added much here cause I have felt like shit since Tuesday.

In my view the most recent trends in inbounds avalanche fatalities have mostly been that small pocket or terrain trap that looks innocuous until someone mostly riding solo is swept and killed.

I agree with TFW that you can't cover every potential spot and the sooner you put skiers on a snow surface (either seasonal or that day) the sooner the hazard is reduced or minimized.

The skiing public bears some responsibility for their own safety when it comes to making the choice to venture into rowdy terrain. #1. Try not to ski solo especially on days with elevated hazard and/or bad visibility.

RE: Powdorks post. Class-A areas really need a GM/CEO with a lot of Snow Safety experience. Alan @ A-Basin, Randy at BB or Onno at Alta all come to mind.

[SumJongGuy]

Is Vail still pissed about this photo??

[nickinbc]

Learning about last Tuesday’s death in a Size 1 avalanche on Whistler Mountain was undoubtedly an eerie experience for Ryan Crisp.

The skier — a frequent visitor to Whistler from the U.K. — recently survived his own brush with death after being fully buried in a Size 2 slab avalanche while traversing to Blackcomb Mountain’s Sapphire Bowl on March 15. It was one of four avalanche events that occurred within Whistler Blackcomb's boundaries between March 15 and April 6 of this year, a spokesperson for the resort confirmed.

“I was sure I was a goner. Sure my life was cut short, that it was entirely out of my grasp, no longer in my own hands,” Crisp wrote in a lengthy Facebook post recounting the incident.

A representative for the Ski Club of Great Britain who has spent several seasons in Whistler and typically spends at least five weeks in the resort each winter, Crisp was leading a group, enjoying tree laps through 10 centimetres of new snow and stormy conditions that Tuesday when visibility in the alpine began improving. The group decided to cruise down Blackcomb Glacier that afternoon, with the objective of skiing into Sapphire Bowl to Zut Zut.

“Fortunately, whenever I ski this zone I always spread the group out. Not because I am directly concerned about avalanche risk, but more so as I like to promote good skiing tactics, this being one of them,” he wrote.

After stopping briefly, Crisp got moving along the traverse toward Sapphire again and immediately noticed snow sluff starting to fall around him.

'The difference maker and reason I am here: [avalanche] training and equipment'

“In the next second my life literally turned upside down as the entire slope released,” he said. “I didn’t hear a crack, but others did and said it was deep and haunting.”

The snow pushed his skis downhill, pointing toward a cliff band. “The best way I can describe it is it was like just as I thought I was going to escape, a snowy arm came out of moving snow and grabbed me by the scruff of the collar and pulled me into the chaos,” he described.

As he found himself in a “tumble drier” being pushed downward in a cloud of snow, “I was swimming upwards to the light, fighting with everything I had, screaming,” he wrote, “and as a result of the latter, now choking on rushing snow down my throat.”

Aware of the cliffs beneath him, Crisp braced for the weightless feeling he knew would accompany being carried over the edge. But it never came. “I came to a sudden stop, a quarter of a second relief that I hadn’t rode the cliff,” he said, “but then the gravity of the situation increased ten fold.”

Crisp realized he was fully buried as the heavy snow compacted around him, gradually snuffing out any light seeping in from above. Though his left arm was cemented, he could tell which direction was up and knew his right arm was stuck reaching for the sky. Barely able to move his fingers, Crisp mustered the strength to punch upwards, ultimately cracking the surface.

A friend spotted his hand and rushed over, quickly digging out his face, with another friend moving in to clear the snow that had filled Crisp’s airway.

He soon learned two other members of his group had been at least partially buried in the slide; one of whom managed to swim to the surface and self-extricate. Two others were caught in the avalanche, which Crisp said left behind a crown wall approximately 20 metres long, but not buried.

“The difference maker and reason I am here: training and equipment,” Crisp wrote. “Three members of my group all had their AST 2 (Avalanche Skills Training Level 2), and two had all of their gear with them.”

All Crisp lost in the incident was a pole. Though another member of his group lost a ski, patrol attended with a spare and the group was able to ride out via Zut Zut after all. Crisp told Pique he was skiing with a transceiver, probe, shovel and airbag at the time of the incident. He didn’t have time to activate the airbag.

“The concept of an inbounds patrolled area is one of the reasons I love skiing out here,” he wrote in the post. “We get to regularly ski terrain that would only ever be considered in Europe with full pro mountain guides. Not saying that’s right or wrong, also not saying that that makes us/me not take the hills seriously. I do, and always have worn safety equipment.”

The following day, Crisp said he learned a Size 1.5 avalanche had released on nearby Surf’s Up earlier on March 15 that carried two people, but resulted in no burials.

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/366...t-month#366172

[Core Shot]

Is Vail still pissed about this photo??

No.

That’s good publicity.

[californiagrown]

No.

That’s good publicity.

Vail resorts: The most fun you can have with your pants on.... Or off.