Progressive vs traditional mount point merits

[skinipenem]

Thx Marshall. Will add that info.

PS just checked the properties on my Excel file….I created it in 2012 and have been lovingly updating it for >10 years now.

Since then I’ve been divorced (2013), lived in my truck (2014), lived at a Baker cabin (2015), moved to North Van (2017) and got remarried (2019) to a skier. Lots of life changes but my ski spreadsheet has always been there.

This is true love.... skiing that is.




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[Marshal Olson]

Thx Marshall. Will add that info.

PS just checked the properties on my Excel file….I created it in 2012 and have been lovingly updating it for >10 years now.

Since then I’ve been divorced (2013), lived in my truck (2014), lived at a Baker cabin (2015), moved to North Van (2017) and got remarried (2019) to a skier. Lots of life changes but my ski spreadsheet has always been there.

really brought a smile to my face today!!

triple a plus

[kid-kapow]

can you imagine me posting in the Volkl thread I’m at +5cm (-6.5cm) on the M102. I bet I’d like it better than rec. And people would lose their minds.

I doubt it. They would just point out that you are more likely than not on the wrong ski or that something else is amiss (be it setup, stance, whathaveyou).

That is also the "problem" with the Pollard story as a guide on how to mount stuff. If the skis skied well at +whatever, why did he significantly change the geo to cater to a -2 mount? Because they did not, but he could make them work to ski the mountain to the best of his abilities with what he had.

Here’s my Excel.

How do you measure the tip? Mount point to the end/tip of the ski or mount point to contact point?

Funny. I seek out bindings with as little delta as possible. I ski Moment Voyagers (ATK) specifically because they are just about the flattest touring bindings with a brake in existence.

They are not. At 7mm delta they are more mid-pack, even at this type of binding. Alpinist (2mm) are one of several designs that are flatter. But def happy to hear that you like them.

source1 source2

[chaka]

hey nerds. is there a database somewheres that has TC/recommended mount locations? I'm curious where the 4Frnt MSP mount is, because I love that ski on the line, and then I could correlate better with other skis/mount points.

[TexasGortex]

Ski sooth is a wealth of technical measurements including setback

[Kevo]

They are not. At 7mm delta they are more mid-pack, even at this type of binding. Alpinist (2mm) are one of several designs that are flatter. But def happy to hear that you like them.

source1 source2

Fair enough. They're a hell of a lot better than my old dynafit verticals with almost 2cm of delta

[SoVT Joey]

Fair enough. They're a hell of a lot better than my old dynafit verticals with almost 2cm of delta

dynafit tlt is 12 and vertical is 16, the others are 15. Still not 2cm of delta. Most delta is plum guides.

here, this will help you. https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-u...for-your-ramp/

lots of options if you know your body.

[kid-kapow]

Fair enough. They're a hell of a lot better than my old dynafit verticals with almost 2cm of delta

yup, most Dynafit ramp angles are just ridiculous. Do not even get me started on their rotating toes...

here, this will help you. https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-u...for-your-ramp/.

re post #78 source 1.

[Mustonen]

Another thought: I get along just fine with forward mount point on skis that are (at least as I visualize it) meant/best skied with the skis underneath you, like Renegades, even on hard pack. Skis where you can really stand on the edges I prefer a bit further back as I inevitably will get frustrated if I can’t crawl up the ski and bend the tip.

[Kevo]

dynafit tlt is 12 and vertical is 16, the others are 15. Still not 2cm of delta. Most delta is plum guides.

here, this will help you. https://www.wildsnow.com/10733/get-u...for-your-ramp/

lots of options if you know your body.

16 mm is almost 2cm...

I first started figuring out how much ramp angle matters to me on a pair of FT12s. They skied horribly. Adding to the poor performance was a pair of Dynafit Titan boots I was trying to make work that had way to much heal slop.

My first 3 or 4 touring setups were all terrible. A clunky Fritchi Freeride set of bindings with a habit of insta teliing with some spirit 4 boots that couldn't drive some early iteration of a BD ski that was too stiff, the FT12s on some CRJs with sloppy Dynafit boots, etc.

I'm really glad that things have progressed in the industry. Touring gear 10-15 years ago was so shitty.

[chaka]

Ski sooth is a wealth of technical measurements including setback

thanks!

[jacob_dbu]

Bringing this thread back, I picked up a pair of Jeff 110s and I’m committed to learning to like skiing them. I’m a big fan of the Woods 102. Have one day on them so far and felt very OTB for most of the day. Still skied well, but it wasn’t natural for me. At first I thought it might be the ramp angle and wondering if maybe mount point and ramp angle are proportional…that is the more progressive the mount point, the less ramp you want to achieve the same feeling.

But then I read about the amount of ski in front of you, and that makes a lot of sense…

[Shorty_J]

Bringing this thread back, I picked up a pair of Jeff 110s and I’m committed to learning to like skiing them. I’m a big fan of the Woods 102. Have one day on them so far and felt very OTB for most of the day. Still skied well, but it wasn’t natural for me. At first I thought it might be the ramp angle and wondering if maybe mount point and ramp angle are proportional…that is the more progressive the mount point, the less ramp you want to achieve the same feeling.

But then I read about the amount of ski in front of you, and that makes a lot of sense…

So many variables at play.

That's why I prefer to mount demo bindings to find out where I like them.

You might not jive with progressive mount points... or you might not jive with the binding delta... or you might not jive with the mount point.

I recently mounted normal pivots on a pair of skis after I decided where I like them as well. But I have had skis that I didn't like until I changed the mount point and then I loved them. Demos allow you to figure that out with fewer holes.

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[jacob_dbu]

So many variables at play.

That's why I prefer to mount demo bindings to find out where I like them.

You might not jive with progressive mount points... or you might not jive with the binding delta... or you might not jive with the mount point.

I recently mounted normal pivots on a pair of skis after I decided where I like them as well. But I have had skis that I didn't like until I changed the mount point and then I loved them. Demos allow you to figure that out with fewer holes.

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I did in fact mount with Warden Demos so I’m ahead of the game there. I will certainly try adjusting the in-front-of-me ski length, but it won’t change the binding delta. I guess I should try that first as it’s the easiest to do.

[Shorty_J]

Yup... one variable at a time.

It could just be a visual trick with you not seeing as much ski in front of you as you are used to, but it also could be the ski... based on what you said about OTB I would say start moving the mount back a bit a see how you feel.

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[oltrepiave]

It took me a long time to learn that the body composition plays a really large part. I have very long femurs, a short torso, and a stiff lower back. I have never been able to ski well with a traditional mount point. Even with boots at a 21+ degree forward lean. I can’t pressure the tips to save my life. But put me very close to center and I suddenly have full control in all conditions. I know I am a very extreme case, but I wish body composition was brought up more often.

wow this one really got to me. Very accurate analysis.

I love discussions like these. Progressive mounts are my thing.

I learned to ski when I was a child but switched to snowboarding pretty early on. Never raced on skis. Snowboarded throughout my adolescence until I moved to skis since I wanted to get into the BC, splitboards weren't a thing (not in rural Italy at least) and the ski-touring hype train hadn't started yet so gear could be bought for cheap.

I love slashing. I think there's many types and approaches to it, I love em all. What I do favor the most though is the abrupt "throw em sideways" ones rather than the more moderate end-of-turn slarves. What ultimately changed my life was trying tech bindings (good ol tlt speeds) on freeride skis some years ago and feeling like I could bring back butters, small non-consequential 3s and slashes to skiing. When I'm deep in the BC I tend to stay conservative on the former 2 but slashes and different turn shapes are a staple. Hence my preference towards forward mounts (generally 4 or 5 from TC) which can be tweaked according to ski type and length (e.g. I run the rec. mountpoint on my bent120 which is 3 cm from TC and I have opted for -5 from TC for my menace98).



Maybe it wouldn't be appropriate to mention it here but I find that forward mounts require a bit of an adjustment in posture and skinning technique. They can be a pain in the ass on the uphill. I've seen Ryan and the guys from Experienced Gear demonstrate some botched/"hacked" switchbacks in the Raven review but I can say that these days I can skin on all my setups (my DD are tracer 108 188 mounted at -4 from tc) with "normal" switchbacks and skis-on transitions. I do fuck up some muscles in my back/shoulders from time to time when I try to reach for the skin notch or rotate the heelpiece on the bindings. It definitely took me 5/6 years to refine my technique but luckily having so may skimo-racer friends and touring partners enabled me to learn by watching them. Forward mounts are also a bitch when doing dryland approaches, A frame of diagonal I still end up kicking my skis when walking or hitting stuff along the way.

As far as the downhill goes I feel like in touring skis,at least in Europe, traditional mounts were offered to complement skiers' needs and gear choices. 10 years ago the best selling touring models in the Alps (k2 wayback/elan alaska etc.) featured traditional shapes and especially mounts because they were functional for the whole steep/pente raide malarkey. Given that the vast majority of skiers picked ridiculously short lengths having that mount and consequently a short tail enabled anyone to perform jump turns anywhere.
I have seen the drawback to that with my own eyes in the sense of skiers dropping into stuff with no leg power or technique (+ a heavy pack maybe) and experiencing the infamous "speedboat effect" with the tips wheelieing out after landing backseat from jumpturns.
Personally I have never skied anything that proved to be too steep for my mounts, I do feel the extra leg work required to bring the whole ski around in the jump turn but I like being able to control what happens once I land and avoiding the semi-halfpipe, rocking back and forth motion that I could experience if I had a rearward mount and more surface past my toepiece. Also I am a lightweight guy , 68 kg for 180 cm (no I'm not converting that, "euro power baby fuck yeah").

Given the pretty challenging (or should I say fucked up) snow conditions I have to work with I have found a sweet spot over the years with forward mounts on "5050" (in terms of directional/non directional) ski shapes. I have also been able to feel certain differences.

I owned and loved bent100s mounted at -5 from TC. Probably my favorite touring quiver ever. Then I switched bindings and due to hole conflicts I had to remount on rec (should be 9-10 from TC, not too sure because I really had to squeeze an extra cm maybe to fit that second mount). It didn't kill the ski or switch it up completely but I felt like I had lost a lot of the pop that I previously enjoyed given that I was standing above the widest cambered portion in the middle of the skis. Having less tail made my slashes last less and kinda muffled my confidence in being able to hold them on less-than-ideal terrain (its' funny cause that was the only time I ever experienced that "over the handlebars" feel that a lot of traditional/directional/more muscular skiers tend to experience whenever they try forward mounts). Being so far back did lead me to enjoy some long-radius turning sprees but given the not-so-stout flex in the tips of the bent100 I didn't feel as confident dealing with dense patches of shitty/tracked out snow.
It was a cool and fun experience but I do feel like I still prefer having that ultimate control on terrain and different snow types which I could face while coming down (not just slashing but also the whole smearing, slarving etc.).

I read Marshal's experienced and found it super interesting, especially the football goalkeeper reference . I grew up playing football and futsal. You could say futsal is the more technical variant given that there's less players and a smooth surface so you tend to play the ball way more frequently than in standard 11-a-side soccer (fuck it I said it). Given the tight spaces and the necessity to always keep the ball at your feet you end up controlling, dribbling and managing it with your sole all the time (directly underneath the ball of your foot). So when he brought up that reference it did spark something in my own brain given that I've always felt like I like skiing in a definitely upright position and with my BOF and ankles.

Also in shitfuck crusts if I really have to resort to desperate jump turns just to be able to change directions I'd rather do that with some tail surface underneath and the ability to shift my weight forward just to get out of the snow. But I guess it's just preference and habit maybe.

I loved the spreadsheets that were shared on here but I do like the romantic aspect of just standing barefoot over unmounted skis and trusting that gut feeling. I've always found that what I felt was the right mount was the same mount that I would have picked looking at specs and numbers.

Maybe it is also visual? We all get used to having "some" tip in front of us while skiing, who knows.

[SirVicSmasher]

wow this one really got to me. Very accurate analysis.

I love discussions like these. Progressive mounts are my thing.

I learned to ski when I was a child but switched to snowboarding pretty early on. Never raced on skis. Snowboarded throughout my adolescence until I moved to skis since I wanted to get into the BC, splitboards weren't a thing (not in rural Italy at least) and the ski-touring hype train hadn't started yet so gear could be bought for cheap.

I love slashing. I think there's many types and approaches to it, I love em all. What I do favor the most though is the abrupt "throw em sideways" ones rather than the more moderate end-of-turn slarves. What ultimately changed my life was trying tech bindings (good ol tlt speeds) on freeride skis some years ago and feeling like I could bring back butters, small non-consequential 3s and slashes to skiing. When I'm deep in the BC I tend to stay conservative on the former 2 but slashes and different turn shapes are a staple. Hence my preference towards forward mounts (generally 4 or 5 from TC) which can be tweaked according to ski type and length (e.g. I run the rec. mountpoint on my bent120 which is 3 cm from TC and I have opted for -5 from TC for my menace98).



Maybe it wouldn't be appropriate to mention it here but I find that forward mounts require a bit of an adjustment in posture and skinning technique. They can be a pain in the ass on the uphill. I've seen Ryan and the guys from Experienced Gear demonstrate some botched/"hacked" switchbacks in the Raven review but I can say that these days I can skin on all my setups (my DD are tracer 108 188 mounted at -4 from tc) with "normal" switchbacks and skis-on transitions. I do fuck up some muscles in my back/shoulders from time to time when I try to reach for the skin notch or rotate the heelpiece on the bindings. It definitely took me 5/6 years to refine my technique but luckily having so may skimo-racer friends and touring partners enabled me to learn by watching them. Forward mounts are also a bitch when doing dryland approaches, A frame of diagonal I still end up kicking my skis when walking or hitting stuff along the way.

As far as the downhill goes I feel like in touring skis,at least in Europe, traditional mounts were offered to complement skiers' needs and gear choices. 10 years ago the best selling touring models in the Alps (k2 wayback/elan alaska etc.) featured traditional shapes and especially mounts because they were functional for the whole steep/pente raide malarkey. Given that the vast majority of skiers picked ridiculously short lengths having that mount and consequently a short tail enabled anyone to perform jump turns anywhere.
I have seen the drawback to that with my own eyes in the sense of skiers dropping into stuff with no leg power or technique (+ a heavy pack maybe) and experiencing the infamous "speedboat effect" with the tips wheelieing out after landing backseat from jumpturns.
Personally I have never skied anything that proved to be too steep for my mounts, I do feel the extra leg work required to bring the whole ski around in the jump turn but I like being able to control what happens once I land and avoiding the semi-halfpipe, rocking back and forth motion that I could experience if I had a rearward mount and more surface past my toepiece. Also I am a lightweight guy , 68 kg for 180 cm (no I'm not converting that, "euro power baby fuck yeah").

Given the pretty challenging (or should I say fucked up) snow conditions I have to work with I have found a sweet spot over the years with forward mounts on "5050" (in terms of directional/non directional) ski shapes. I have also been able to feel certain differences.

I owned and loved bent100s mounted at -5 from TC. Probably my favorite touring quiver ever. Then I switched bindings and due to hole conflicts I had to remount on rec (should be 9-10 from TC, not too sure because I really had to squeeze an extra cm maybe to fit that second mount). It didn't kill the ski or switch it up completely but I felt like I had lost a lot of the pop that I previously enjoyed given that I was standing above the widest cambered portion in the middle of the skis. Having less tail made my slashes last less and kinda muffled my confidence in being able to hold them on less-than-ideal terrain (its' funny cause that was the only time I ever experienced that "over the handlebars" feel that a lot of traditional/directional/more muscular skiers tend to experience whenever they try forward mounts). Being so far back did lead me to enjoy some long-radius turning sprees but given the not-so-stout flex in the tips of the bent100 I didn't feel as confident dealing with dense patches of shitty/tracked out snow.
It was a cool and fun experience but I do feel like I still prefer having that ultimate control on terrain and different snow types which I could face while coming down (not just slashing but also the whole smearing, slarving etc.).

I read Marshal's experienced and found it super interesting, especially the football goalkeeper reference . I grew up playing football and futsal. You could say futsal is the more technical variant given that there's less players and a smooth surface so you tend to play the ball way more frequently than in standard 11-a-side soccer (fuck it I said it). Given the tight spaces and the necessity to always keep the ball at your feet you end up controlling, dribbling and managing it with your sole all the time (directly underneath the ball of your foot). So when he brought up that reference it did spark something in my own brain given that I've always felt like I like skiing in a definitely upright position and with my BOF and ankles.

Also in shitfuck crusts if I really have to resort to desperate jump turns just to be able to change directions I'd rather do that with some tail surface underneath and the ability to shift my weight forward just to get out of the snow. But I guess it's just preference and habit maybe.

I loved the spreadsheets that were shared on here but I do like the romantic aspect of just standing barefoot over unmounted skis and trusting that gut feeling. I've always found that what I felt was the right mount was the same mount that I would have picked looking at specs and numbers.

Maybe it is also visual? We all get used to having "some" tip in front of us while skiing, who knows.

J

O

N

G

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[thefortrees]

Ski more, think less


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[SkiLyft]

Ski more, think less


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This is the way


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[waxoff]

Nahh, me thinks dude needs higher ramp/delta. Shim those heels buddy!

[SoVT Joey]

Nahh, me thinks dude needs higher ramp/delta. Shim those heels buddy!

I agree. Some people need delta.

[oltrepiave]

J

O

N

G

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first major achievement unlocked. at last

never really reflected too much on ramp angle, I have some atk spacers to mount on/next to my MTNs, I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the rec.

[rod9301]

wow this one really got to me. Very accurate analysis.

I love discussions like these. Progressive mounts are my thing.

I learned to ski when I was a child but switched to snowboarding pretty early on. Never raced on skis. Snowboarded throughout my adolescence until I moved to skis since I wanted to get into the BC, splitboards weren't a thing (not in rural Italy at least) and the ski-touring hype train hadn't started yet so gear could be bought for cheap.

I love slashing. I think there's many types and approaches to it, I love em all. What I do favor the most though is the abrupt "throw em sideways" ones rather than the more moderate end-of-turn slarves. What ultimately changed my life was trying tech bindings (good ol tlt speeds) on freeride skis some years ago and feeling like I could bring back butters, small non-consequential 3s and slashes to skiing. When I'm deep in the BC I tend to stay conservative on the former 2 but slashes and different turn shapes are a staple. Hence my preference towards forward mounts (generally 4 or 5 from TC) which can be tweaked according to ski type and length (e.g. I run the rec. mountpoint on my bent120 which is 3 cm from TC and I have opted for -5 from TC for my menace98).



Maybe it wouldn't be appropriate to mention it here but I find that forward mounts require a bit of an adjustment in posture and skinning technique. They can be a pain in the ass on the uphill. I've seen Ryan and the guys from Experienced Gear demonstrate some botched/"hacked" switchbacks in the Raven review but I can say that these days I can skin on all my setups (my DD are tracer 108 188 mounted at -4 from tc) with "normal" switchbacks and skis-on transitions. I do fuck up some muscles in my back/shoulders from time to time when I try to reach for the skin notch or rotate the heelpiece on the bindings. It definitely took me 5/6 years to refine my technique but luckily having so may skimo-racer friends and touring partners enabled me to learn by watching them. Forward mounts are also a bitch when doing dryland approaches, A frame of diagonal I still end up kicking my skis when walking or hitting stuff along the way.

As far as the downhill goes I feel like in touring skis,at least in Europe, traditional mounts were offered to complement skiers' needs and gear choices. 10 years ago the best selling touring models in the Alps (k2 wayback/elan alaska etc.) featured traditional shapes and especially mounts because they were functional for the whole steep/pente raide malarkey. Given that the vast majority of skiers picked ridiculously short lengths having that mount and consequently a short tail enabled anyone to perform jump turns anywhere.
I have seen the drawback to that with my own eyes in the sense of skiers dropping into stuff with no leg power or technique (+ a heavy pack maybe) and experiencing the infamous "speedboat effect" with the tips wheelieing out after landing backseat from jumpturns.
Personally I have never skied anything that proved to be too steep for my mounts, I do feel the extra leg work required to bring the whole ski around in the jump turn but I like being able to control what happens once I land and avoiding the semi-halfpipe, rocking back and forth motion that I could experience if I had a rearward mount and more surface past my toepiece. Also I am a lightweight guy , 68 kg for 180 cm (no I'm not converting that, "euro power baby fuck yeah").

Given the pretty challenging (or should I say fucked up) snow conditions I have to work with I have found a sweet spot over the years with forward mounts on "5050" (in terms of directional/non directional) ski shapes. I have also been able to feel certain differences.

I owned and loved bent100s mounted at -5 from TC. Probably my favorite touring quiver ever. Then I switched bindings and due to hole conflicts I had to remount on rec (should be 9-10 from TC, not too sure because I really had to squeeze an extra cm maybe to fit that second mount). It didn't kill the ski or switch it up completely but I felt like I had lost a lot of the pop that I previously enjoyed given that I was standing above the widest cambered portion in the middle of the skis. Having less tail made my slashes last less and kinda muffled my confidence in being able to hold them on less-than-ideal terrain (its' funny cause that was the only time I ever experienced that "over the handlebars" feel that a lot of traditional/directional/more muscular skiers tend to experience whenever they try forward mounts). Being so far back did lead me to enjoy some long-radius turning sprees but given the not-so-stout flex in the tips of the bent100 I didn't feel as confident dealing with dense patches of shitty/tracked out snow.
It was a cool and fun experience but I do feel like I still prefer having that ultimate control on terrain and different snow types which I could face while coming down (not just slashing but also the whole smearing, slarving etc.).

I read Marshal's experienced and found it super interesting, especially the football goalkeeper reference . I grew up playing football and futsal. You could say futsal is the more technical variant given that there's less players and a smooth surface so you tend to play the ball way more frequently than in standard 11-a-side soccer (fuck it I said it). Given the tight spaces and the necessity to always keep the ball at your feet you end up controlling, dribbling and managing it with your sole all the time (directly underneath the ball of your foot). So when he brought up that reference it did spark something in my own brain given that I've always felt like I like skiing in a definitely upright position and with my BOF and ankles.

Also in shitfuck crusts if I really have to resort to desperate jump turns just to be able to change directions I'd rather do that with some tail surface underneath and the ability to shift my weight forward just to get out of the snow. But I guess it's just preference and habit maybe.

I loved the spreadsheets that were shared on here but I do like the romantic aspect of just standing barefoot over unmounted skis and trusting that gut feeling. I've always found that what I felt was the right mount was the same mount that I would have picked looking at specs and numbers.

Maybe it is also visual? We all get used to having "some" tip in front of us while skiing, who knows.

I'm impressed. I would never be able to write so much about skiing

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[whyturn]

So -7 to -8 is my limit. If it’s really deep I prefer -9 or more. So I just got some zag skis and they are -10 or a little more. They are very easy in pow. I can’t seem to balance properly for the more progressive mounts in pow and feel like I’m on a rocking chair.


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[Mustonen]

The last couple skis I’ve gotten I had to go back one or two cm to really gel with them: (Ranger 107, Corvus, feels like a couple others). I’m fine throwing skis sideways, but I find that on any kind of hard pack, even roughed up or a little cruddy, I want to lean into the tips and that just doesn’t seem to work with a progressive mount point. I don’t HAVE to lean into the tips, but I have more fun if I can.

I’m more tolerant of the progressive mount in deeper snow/chop, but also question the benefits a bit more if I’m not flippy/spinny/switchy, which I decidedly am not.