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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    It'll probably just suck for all your friends and employees of the mountain.

    Name one hill they've bought that has been happy with them coming in and taking over. It's actually been the complete opposite. They are despised by mtn communities.
    Latest chat I had with some W/B locals was they were impressed with the upping of the minimum wage. New lifts are welcomed, too.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    It'll probably just suck for all your friends and employees of the mountain.

    Name one hill they've bought that has been happy with them coming in and taking over. It's actually been the complete opposite. They are despised by mtn communities.
    you know the mountain community agreed to take a billion plus in real estate development , right? This is trailing, not leading. It’s not my thing, at all, but the prior thing wasn’t sustainable even if it had its charms

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatty View Post
    The good thing is they didn't buy full ownership. Current ownership maintains 40%. Unfortunately, Vail is taking over operations and, if you read their release, it sounds like lots of synergizing. I've never made it to Andermatt but had wanted to. Dropping it from my list until I see how things shake out. I hate to think of Vail destroying the vibe of Euro skiing the way they have in NA.
    Get it now before they fuck it up. I’m going back next year and hope the Fail Corp hasn’t been able to screw it up to much between now and then.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    you know the mountain community agreed to take a billion plus in real estate development , right? This is trailing, not leading. It’s not my thing, at all, but the prior thing wasn’t sustainable even if it had its charms
    No, I don't know.

    But when Vail comes in, locals lose their jobs and their businesses take a hit also. Vail does not advertise in local town papers, mags, anything. They consolidate all of their buying, like coffee for example...Starbucks. Stowe had VT coffee Co. That business gone. Sure, that's how you make more profit and why they have 1.5 billion in cash, but their product sucks.

    I've seen the same thing in my industry. Two companies based in France are taking it over. One is like Vail and the other is Alterra. The Vail equal is a junkshow, changes everything, yet still profitable. The other makes minor changes and let's things pretty much run the way they always have. They buy and bought these companies because they were profitable, so they're happy keeping them that way.

    Greed can ultimately be a death sentence in the business world. Although it will take a lifetime to blow up 1.5 B in cash plus all the assets. Meh, Vail sucks until they make drastic changes.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    It'll probably just suck for all your friends and employees of the mountain.

    Name one hill they've bought that has been happy with them coming in and taking over. It's actually been the complete opposite. They are despised by mtn communities.
    I was answering Michele's question. Savvy businesses in Vail purchased of the same character as his family's business have done well. I have no doubt they will thrive

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    I was answering Michele's question. Savvy businesses in Vail purchased of the same character as his family's business have done well. I have no doubt they will thrive
    Well, the question was, "living and working". So sure, if your business is not adversely effected or eliminated by Vail, then you may thrive financially, but living and skiing will most likely suffer, hence the quality of your life drops. Money isn't everything especially if you're content with your current financial situation. Quality of daily life trumps all imo.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Well, the question was, "living and working". So sure, if your business is not adversely effected or eliminated by Vail, then you may thrive financially, but living and skiing will most likely suffer, hence the quality of your life drops. Money isn't everything especially if you're content with your current financial situation. Quality of daily life trumps all imo.
    I’ve only been to the “before investment dollars got spent “ andermatt but there wasn’t much. Some old style Swiss inns, a grocery, an expat bar, crappy Swiss inn food. A decaying 19th century hotel. In the decade since they’ve opened a 5-star hotel, 3 Michelin star restaurants, and condos. Your bitch is up the wrong tree. I don’t like where skiing is going, but it’s likely not bad if you are local and smart.

    at least one day I skied at andermatt the number of skiers at the gemstock was likely low single digit multiple of employees. That’s not sustainable

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    I’ve only been to the “before investment dollars got spent “ andermatt but there wasn’t much. Some old style Swiss inns, a grocery, an expat bar, crappy Swiss inn food. A decaying 19th century hotel. In the decade since they’ve opened a 5-star hotel, 3 Michelin star restaurants, and condos. Your bitch is up the wrong tree. I don’t like where skiing is going, but it’s likely not bad if you are local and smart.

    at least one day I skied at andermatt the number of skiers at the gemstock was likely low single digit multiple of employees. That’s not sustainable
    Ok, thanks for some local intel to that situation.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    I’ve only been to the “before investment dollars got spent “ andermatt but there wasn’t much. Some old style Swiss inns, a grocery, an expat bar, crappy Swiss inn food. A decaying 19th century hotel. In the decade since they’ve opened a 5-star hotel, 3 Michelin star restaurants, and condos. Your bitch is up the wrong tree. I don’t like where skiing is going, but it’s likely not bad if you are local and smart.

    at least one day I skied at andermatt the number of skiers at the gemstock was likely low single digit multiple of employees. That’s not sustainable
    Its also quite quiet in summer fwiw

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    you know the mountain community agreed to take a billion plus in real estate development , right? This is trailing, not leading. It’s not my thing, at all, but the prior thing wasn’t sustainable even if it had its charms
    This. Since Sawiris has been pouring $$$ into Andermatt, feels to me like writing has been on the wall. He put the money in, Vail will bring (to his mind) the “professionalization”. The real estate development helped allow it.

    Fingers crossed it stays limited to Andermatt. Real estate a huge piece of this puzzle, and that is a tough game to play in Switz. Add to that the different customer expectations, and it may not work elsewhere.

  11. #36
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    I just hope it helps vendul and Serena, they have worked hard and are deserving of all the success in the world.
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  12. #37
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    Thank you Buster!
    After all we are in Europe, in Switzerland… “business freedom “ has its limits here…. The job market is very competitive ( but for the companies, not the employees)… skiing has been around for a century now and we would be their only company for a while not allowing them to have their own cartel. It might change, but don’t expect to be this drastic.
    Look at Andermatt (village) which underwent the biggest 10 year makeover in the history of the Swiss Alps with 1,3 billion $ invested so far and it still has its charme


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  13. #38
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    I hope that it does benefit the independent business in the area by creating a coat tail effect. But I still question the wisdom of Vail jumping in with both feet into a place with notoriously severe winter weather. It’s a harsh, windswept high valley more often than not. Little chance of lift or terrain expansion as well. There’s a growing resistance by the Swiss to rampant second home development in the mountains. This will be interesting to follow.

  14. #39
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    I checked the Epic pass site... where's the catch?!?! Or is there something I'm missing? 850$ for unlimited access to all those resorts?!?!?!

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by vendul View Post
    I checked the Epic pass site... where's the catch?!?! Or is there something I'm missing? 850$ for unlimited access to all those resorts?!?!?!
    oh boy. you've opened a can of worms.

    and as far as iv'e gathered from the other threads, major resorts have blackout days if you're not paying extra?

    and "Limited access to our partner resorts in North America, Europe and Japan." im not sure what status andermatt will have since they bought it?
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  16. #41
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    Also visited Andermatt several years back before the Chedi etc. Was there again on the bike in the Summer and it didn’t feel much different to me? The old town still has its cobbled street charm. The new development area is out of the old town sitting on its own. It’s stil a tiny place compared to the big Euro resorts and sits in a pretty narrow, cold, dark valley. Good for off piste trips (especially from Zürich) but can’t see it ever becoming a big mainstream resort.
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  17. #42
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    The gemsstock has never been empty on a powder day( well..in the last 20 years...i have no idea about the 90s), but you could do 2 or 3 bowl laps instead of just one

    Just like Engelberg. But even today not many people roam it weekdays in January if it hasn't dumped. That's why they connected everything to sedrun. It's their sunny resort skiing, catering to the chedi crowd, which is aroundthe corner while you have to walk quite a bit to the gemsstock.

    Andermatt was quite happy with itself until the armed forces left. They needed new sources of income and it worked quite well for them.

    The only Real epic downside is epic powdertourists coming on the Pass. There won't be that many normal tourists extra ( I guess?).
    And it's been crowded for years with upper tram rounds requiring a 45min wait, if it snows from the south and nothing else in the North gets fresh snow. Or 2 hours at the bottom if you come later than 8:30. The Problem is rather even more powder Stress than actual vail overtourism.
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    No, I don't know.

    But when Vail comes in, locals lose their jobs and their businesses take a hit also. Vail does not advertise in local town papers, mags, anything. They consolidate all of their buying, like coffee for example...Starbucks. Stowe had VT coffee Co. That business gone. Sure, that's how you make more profit and why they have 1.5 billion in cash, but their product sucks.

    I've seen the same thing in my industry. Two companies based in France are taking it over. One is like Vail and the other is Alterra. The Vail equal is a junkshow, changes everything, yet still profitable. The other makes minor changes and let's things pretty much run the way they always have. They buy and bought these companies because they were profitable, so they're happy keeping them that way.

    Greed can ultimately be a death sentence in the business world. Although it will take a lifetime to blow up 1.5 B in cash plus all the assets. Meh, Vail sucks until they make drastic changes.
    Wait. Vail just owns the skiing operation at Stowe. Are you blaming them for the failure of a coffee shop down in the village?

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vendul View Post
    I checked the Epic pass site... where's the catch?!?! Or is there something I'm missing? 850$ for unlimited access to all those resorts?!?!?!
    It’s their business model. Sell relatively inexpensive season passes that includes many resorts. Folks buy them, then ski exclusively at Vail resorts buying from the Vail run or leased retailers. The result is $12 beers, crowded hills and competing areas struggling to survive

  20. #45
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    Cool… but it won’t work here. 70% of the restaurants on and off the mountain are still privately owned and too small to be of Vails interest


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  21. #46
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    Of concern might be lift ticket pricing. As a potential customer, this is what I'm watching.

    If Vail gives a significant discount to patrons of some group of hotels, other hotels could lose business.

    Hopefully the Euro ski market is sufficiently diversified to have that tactic fail.
    Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Of concern might be lift ticket pricing. As a potential customer, this is what I'm watching.

    If Vail gives a significant discount to patrons of some group of hotels, other hotels could lose business.

    Hopefully the Euro ski market is sufficiently diversified to have that tactic fail.
    as iv'e written before the French Mega ski corps didn't really catch on. not even in France itself. so there is hope. I don't know wether theytried to expand and failed for "euro reasons" (which would be nice )or wether they just thought 'we're happy with what we got" the Compagnie des alpes surely would have had the money to buy more.
    and i think scrapping the 50% pass is a given..
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  23. #48
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    Image: Rob Katz and Kirsten Lynch visiting Andermatt
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    Caption: CEO Lynch learns how much lifties cost in Switzerland
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    Reaction: Chairman of the Board Katz discovers that non-VR instructors and guides are allowed to operate at Andermatt
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    Also, Ikon added Chamonix (already has Zermatt). Interestingly, Cham used to be on Epic.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nortonwhis View Post
    TBF they have been pretty good at Whistler Blackcomb. They did fuck up some management decisions, but the past 3 seasons I think they have done amazing with what they had.
    This would make me more motivated to head to Europe if I had a week of free skiing that wasn't linked to a fancy hotel like the current epic pass.
    That’s because you are trained in the duopoly mindset though. the lift tickets are such a relatively small part of the budget for a euro ski trip. I have had this conversation with my epic best friend. “Well if we go to Europe we need to stay here and ski here”. No if we go to Europe we need to go wherever we want because our lift tickets for a week is skiing will be a fraction of our plane tickets.

    Hopefully that doesn’t change with this deal. It’s not obvious to me that it will. In the us, the model is to give away the lift tickets with a cheap pass because we can gouge you on foos and lodging which we control. Unless (until) Vail is going to buy half the restaurants and lodging in the andermatt domain, I don’t see the same model working there. Maybe wishful thinking though…

  25. #50
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    To be fair, $850 for a season pass at Andermatt sounds like a steal if you live in Switz. I assume that won’t actually be the case, but having fun imagining the guys at VR HQ scratching their heads at the sales numbers if they did it.


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