Firing People

[GiBo]

I had to fire a guy yesterday. Well, technically not pass his one year probation, but basically fire him. He was hired by the last manager. I've been the manager for 6 months. I had lots of feedback from staff that he wasn't cutting it. Some said he was down right dangerous in the field. I'm two layers removed from him, so I never had much direct contact with him. The supervisors were saying past managers were lax and let shitty people pass probation who we are now stuck with (union and civil service- VERY hard to fire people). They were begging me to reverse this trend. So I pulled the trigger.

I've fired people for cause before- like stealing. Those are easy. Those guys know it and just leave. But this one was different. This was telling a guy he just wasn't good enough. The guy was so shocked and hurt. I can't stop thinking about the impact I just had on his life. Can't get his distraught face out of my mind. He was pleading with me to change my mind. Holy shit it's eating me up.

I feel like I'm a good manager, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for this part. Any advise on how to not be such a pussy? I have peers that do this so easily it's like they're fucking sociopaths.

[AdironRider]

I think it is a tough position to have to rely on a third party opinion of someone's work performance when making a decision to fire someone. Even more-so when you are telling them they inherently suck. That is a pretty tough situation I would not feel comfortable with doing personally.

Why didn't their direct manager have to do this?

[gravitylover]

I just looked them in the face and said something like 'The owner/my boss is disappointed in your performance and told me to let you go'. Cold and to the point and it took the burden off my shoulders. I used to get roasted for it but, ultimately, I got over it. The boss was just as cold when my time came.

[mcphee]

Was he made aware by you or the previous manager that his performance was lacking? Was he given “coaching” so to speak to improve his performance to meet the expectations of the group? I ask because it seems like he was blindsided based on his reaction to the news. I would say moving forward that people on an initial probation period should have plenty of communication and feedback on performance and expectations.

[skiskiskiskiski]

Did you have any direct interaction with him about his struggles and failure?

Did the dude have any warning? Like, get your shit together in the next 3 months or you won't make it past probation?

It shouldn't really be a surprise to someone. He should have been told he wasn't cutting it and what he needed to do to get up to speed.

So maybe make a process of evaluations or something so you can look the next dude in the eye and say you need to improve in these ways or you won't be here.

Then it won't be so shocking?

Honestly I think his direct supervisor should fire him, as he's the one who should have been repremanding him all the time.

[Conundrum]

Did he put others at risk? Did others have to work extra time or shift some of his responsibilities to them to pick up the slack? Was his productivity low enough that he was a cost center therefore reducing future wage increases for those who are productive? Firing people sucks especially if they were not given opportunity to improve with feedback. If that's the case, the managers might be the issue. But, if you can answer yes to any of the three questions I asked, you shouldn't feel as bad. It's a tough thing to have to do.

[frorider]

+100 to the posts above. Any professional organization needs to tell an employee their performance is not meeting expectations and here are the specific issues … and here’s how long we are giving you to address those issues AND here’s how we can help you address those issues.

Then, after 3 or 6 months or whatever, review.

Him Getting blindsided means the company failed

[GiBo]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I had to fire a guy yesterday. Well, technically not pass his one year probation, but basically fire him. He was hired by the last manager. I've been the manager for 6 months. I had lots of feedback from staff that he wasn't cutting it. Some said he was down right dangerous in the field. I'm two layers removed from him, so I never had much direct contact with him. The supervisors were saying past managers were lax and let shitty people pass probation who we are now stuck with (union and civil service- VERY hard to fire people). They were begging me to reverse this trend. So I pulled the trigger.

I've fired people for cause before- like stealing. Those are easy. Those guys know it and just leave. But this one was different. This was telling a guy he just wasn't good enough. The guy was so shocked and hurt. I can't stop thinking about the impact I just had on his life. Can't get his distraught face out of my mind. He was pleading with me to change my mind. Holy shit it's eating me up.

I feel like I'm a good manager, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for this part. Any advise on how to not be such a pussy? I have peers that do this so easily it's like they're fucking sociopaths.

If he was shocked, he’s clueless if he is actually incompetent. Not everyone has the aptitude for every job. So many people are carried along in the workplace these days because people are afraid to tell them that maybe they aren’t cut out for the work. Doesn’t make them a bad person but it’s a business and we’re all paid to perform, at least theoretically.


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[MagnificentUnicorn]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

Good job, don’t beat yourself up. Being a manager is harder, should be anyway, than most people think.


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[dan_pdx]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

It's not on you then, sounds like you did things as well as you could. This kind of thing has been on my mind lately: my team's manager quit and I'm currently filling in for him while we search for a replacement. After getting a taste of his job, I'm not planning on applying myself

[GiBo]

Did he put others at risk? Did others have to work extra time or shift some of his responsibilities to them to pick up the slack? Was his productivity low enough that he was a cost center therefore reducing future wage increases for those who are productive? Firing people sucks especially if they were not given opportunity to improve with feedback. If that's the case, the managers might be the issue. But, if you can answer yes to any of the three questions I asked, you shouldn't feel as bad. It's a tough thing to have to do.

I could answer yes to #1 and #2.

[Danno]

It's not on you then, sounds like you did things as well as you could. This kind of thing has been on my mind lately: my team's manager quit and I'm currently filling in for him while we search for a replacement. After getting a taste of his job, I'm not planning on applying myself

Yeah, when my supervisor quit 2 years ago, management discussed replacement with senior folks on the team (of which I am one) and my answer was no way am I becoming management.

[mcphee]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

Ah, well then. Carry on, don’t worry too much about it. Continue to set, communicate, and manage realistic expectations for new hires. Hopefully the status quo of remaining staff telling new hires “everyone passes probation” gets addressed also.

[Conundrum]

After your follow up posts, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all. In fact, you hooked your sup up by taking lead. You should feel good about that. If you're paying someone to do something, they should be worth the money and not detract from others.

[Conundrum]

Yeah, when my supervisor quit 2 years ago, management discussed replacement with senior folks on the team (of which I am one) and my answer was no way am I becoming management.

I was in a similar situation and did the same. Still really happy with the decision four years later.

[XXX-er]

I had to fire a guy yesterday.

I feel like I'm a good manager, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for this part. Any advise on how to not be such a pussy? I have peers that do this so easily it's like they're fucking sociopaths.

I still remember vividly the 2 guys who fired me were literaly crying,

thing is after 30 yrs I gots the DB pension with bridge program starting right away at 49, all benefits and they have to give me 1 yrs severance almost all of which I could protect in an rrsp so no tax

Always inappropriate ... I was laughing

[jmedslc]

Yeah, when my supervisor quit 2 years ago, management discussed replacement with senior folks on the team (of which I am one) and my answer was no way am I becoming management.

Same here. I’ve been there done that and was downsized the fuck outta my former company when they realized my AD could perform the majority of my role and I became a 150k line item. So much for redundancy.

Now I’m an individual contributor and enjoy my work and my colleagues while adding value each day. I’m much more valuable to the company in my current role and have more job security as I’ve got a full project load they’d need to reallocate if they wanted to get rid of me.

And I’m no longer responsible for others’ performance and don’t need to fire people. Gawd I don’t miss that shit.

[jmedslc]

I feel like I'm a good manager, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for this part. Any advise on how to not be such a pussy? I have peers that do this so easily it's like they're fucking sociopaths.

This is very difficult to get past. Even when you know it’s the right thing to do, you’re a human and humans feel for each other. When I had to let a team member go, I kept it all business, but also took time to remind the individual what they are good at and suggested they leverage those aspects going forward. I tried to leave the person with some positive reinforcement even though they weren’t able to meet expectations in the current role.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah, when my supervisor quit 2 years ago, management discussed replacement with senior folks on the team (of which I am one) and my answer was no way am I becoming management.

This is what drove me to resign my last job in CA almost 20 years ago. I was hired to manage a robotic surgery program. When they realized I was able to easily do what they wanted my director and the COO kept adding more responsibility. My director had spine surgery and was out for 6 months but never came back after her FMLA ran out. They just said you can fill the role until we find someone. I said fuck that.


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[mcphee]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

Now that you need an FNG, what was the job? Lol

[ex-powderbroker]

If you have a terrible employee and you keep them on, you are making everyone else's job so much worse (and demoralizing).

[nickwm21]

Sounds like OP did the right thing.

Another tactic I use during the probation discussion is to be frank and openly discuss them finding a new opportunity… IE “You need to be honest with yourself make a decision if you want to spend the next three months to improve and get back on track or if it makes sense for you to start looking for a different job where you can be more successful. We’d love to keep you around if you can perform but if it doesn’t work for us or you, then it doesn’t work…”


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[GiBo]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I think we could definitely do better with our communication and evaluation process. I'm working on that.

I heard some of the staff were remarking yesterday that he was better than a couple of the other guys that had passed probation- which is exactly the point. If he's the 27th best guy out of 30, we aren't doing ourselves right by keeping him. We need to increase the quality of our crews, not continue to bring it down. This is a good government job that a guy with a high school diploma can earn 60k a year with the possibility of making 90k as a sup.

I just struggle with the human side. To look that guy in the eye and see his pain. I'm not doing well with that. I guess that's why the boss makes more. It's fucking hard.

[Woodsy]

Did you have any direct interaction with him about his struggles and failure?

Did the dude have any warning? Like, get your shit together in the next 3 months or you won't make it past probation?

It shouldn't really be a surprise to someone. He should have been told he wasn't cutting it and what he needed to do to get up to speed.

So maybe make a process of evaluations or something so you can look the next dude in the eye and say you need to improve in these ways or you won't be here.

Then it won't be so shocking?

Honestly I think his direct supervisor should fire him, as he's the one who should have been repremanding him all the time.

This.
I have had to fire a number of people and none of them were surprised by it. Well one but we had her clocked into the hotel and her pass was being read on the hill at the same time so she was scamming the resort either way. Being fired was a better choice than theft of services...
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