Firing People

[Woodsy]

I just struggle with the human side. To look that guy in the eye and see his pain. I'm not doing well with that. I guess that's why the boss makes more. It's fucking hard.

it does suck, but look at bright side, no better time in recent memory to be looking for a job.

[Buster Highmen]

Yeah, when my supervisor quit 2 years ago, management discussed replacement with senior folks on the team (of which I am one) and my answer was no way am I becoming management.

I told them I was somewhat interested, but wouldn't be a really good fit because I don't lie very well.

[jerlane]

Sounds like you're a good manager and have a soul. Good for you!

[GiBo]

I still remember vividly the 2 guys who fired me were literaly crying,

thing is after 30 yrs I gots the DB pension with bridge program starting right away at 49, all benefits and they have to give me 1 yrs severance almost all of which I could protect in an rrsp so no tax

Always inappropriate ... I was laughing

I got laid off once. Both my boss and the HR lady cried while giving me the news. Now I know the feeling.

After doing it yesterday, I went into my office, closed the door and cried. It was a tough day for me.

[teleee]

I got laid off once. Both my boss and the HR lady cried while giving me the news. Now I know the feeling.

After doing it yesterday, I went into my office, closed the door and cried. It was a tough day for me.

Good for you! Having empathy makes you a good manager not the other way around. I have been in management for years going on decades, I hope I never fire someone without it bothering me. Unfortunately I have had to do it way more than I like.

[Meadow Skipper]

He was given a bad 6 month eval right before I took over. His sup wanted to do it then, past manager said no. He was given several verbal reprimands over the last 6 months with follow-up emails that his performance needed to improve. He was being coached, but the staff coaching him said he had and attitude and was just not getting it. I think he was shocked because his peers were telling him not to worry, that EVERYONE passes probation. Which was pretty much true for this group and was also a big problem. We have some real shitbirds we're stuck with. I would have lost a lot of credibility with the supervisors if I didn't do it.

I did it with his sup present. Could have pushed off on the sup, but felt like I should do it.

Well played. Still sucks for you, but seems like you did the right thing.

[johnnyg82]

If you have a terrible employee and you keep them on, you are making everyone else's job so much worse (and demoralizing).

Easier said than done in some cases. We've got a toxic employee, but they are great at their job. They manipulate other employees outside of work, and plant seeds and make others upset, and stir the shit around.

Plus finding a replacement at this time has become very hard and very expensive.

[Tamburello Rouge]

Sounds like you're a good manager and have a soul. Good for you!

Yeah, this. Sounds like you're a human being with actual feelings. Hang on to that. Don't let the capitalist fucks beat that out of you.

[frorider]

Easier said than done in some cases. We've got a toxic employee, but they are great at their job. They manipulate other employees outside of work, and plant seeds and make others upset, and stir the shit around.

Plus finding a replacement at this time has become very hard and very expensive.

Sounds like in fact they’re not good at their job. I cannot think of a performance review I’ve received or given that didn’t include ‘ability to work well with others’. IMHO any company that entertains the notion of ‘Yeah he’s a total fucking asshole that everyone here avoids but good at his job’ is living in the 80s. Low dept morale or high turnover costs $$$.

I suppose one exception might be a sociopathic ‘lone wolf’ sales guy who kills it selling widgets to customers who never see his asshole side.

[GiBo]

I really appreciate all of your comments. I know this place has changed over the years, but it still has a lot of good people with a wide range of backgrounds-which makes it a perfect place for subjects like this. I always know I'm not going to get an echo chamber. You always get told straight in here.

Thanks.

[oldnew_guy]

Gibo sounds like a good manager.

That probation is there for a reason with these civil service union gigs. I wish I had worked for more managers willing to not let people pass probation who were a drag on the organization.

Think about what you may have just saved yourself and the supervisor in terms of team dynamic, lost productivity, attitude problems, etc.

It also sounds like maybe some of the people who made it past probation need some shots across the bow for them to clean their act up.

Also, agree with the others who sat in the supervisor role and have self selected out of that role.

[XXX-er]

I had a beef with a manager so he low rates me, so we're doing the PEP after which he said he would have uprated me

but then some whiz kid in head office figures out if the mother corp arbitrarily cans all the low performers they can lose 200 head count so I'm gone just like that after 30 yars

except now manager can't find anyone to move Narth and takeover my job fixing all kinds of shit very fast/ very cheap with minimal training so they have to hire another guy/ give him months of training which negates the whole purpose of the program to reduce headcount

meanwhile Customer sat/ mean-time-to-repair all takes a dive, they overwork the other guy who clocks up 600 hrs of OT and then manager bro down rates him for missing the 300 hr target over which you do not cross

that manager got canned before he could make it to the end


A smart manager figures it out fast, send a guy out there and you got zero idea/ zero control over what he is doing you just hope he does the right thing, and so if a tech can fix/ not stick both feet in his mouth you protect him from those assholes at head office cuz he will make you look good/ make your job easier

[riser4]

I had a beef with a manager so trying to teach me a lesson he low rates me, so we're do the PEP after which he said he would have uprated me

but before he can some whiz kid in head office figures out if the mother corp arbitrarily cans all the low performers they can lose 200 head count so I'm gone just like that after > 30 yars but i am > golden

except now manager can't find anyone to move Narth to takeover my job fixing all kinds of shit very fast/ very cheap with minimal training so they have to hire another guy/ give him months of training which negates the whole purpose of the program to reduce headcount

meanwhile Customer sat/ mean-time-to-repair all takes a dive, they overwork the other guy who needs to clock 600 hrs of OT and then manager bro down rates him for missing the 300 hr target over which you do not cross

that manager eventualy got canned before he could make it to the end


a good manager figures it out, send a guy out there and you got zero idea/ zero control over what he is doing so you just hope he does the right thing, and so if a tech can fix/ not stick both feet in his mouth you protect him from those assholes at head office cuz he will make you look good/ make your job easier

Lessons were learnt all around. Just not the intended ones.

[LHutz Esq]

I've had to fire a few over the years.

It has always sucked.

However, I have yet to regret firing anyone of them.

If they aren't right for the role and you have tried coaching, training, etc. etc. - they are just not right for the role.

It's a small town so I do run into a couple of them now and then and they have new jobs that they seem to be happy at and doing well.

I have to think that getting up everyday and going to a job that you are bad at has to suck if you have any self-awareness at all. Better for all to just end the relationship.

[Mazderati]

[ill-advised strategy]

I had to fire a guy yesterday. Well, technically not pass his one year probation, but basically fire him. He was hired by the last manager. I've been the manager for 6 months. I had lots of feedback from staff that he wasn't cutting it. Some said he was down right dangerous in the field. I'm two layers removed from him, so I never had much direct contact with him. The supervisors were saying past managers were lax and let shitty people pass probation who we are now stuck with (union and civil service- VERY hard to fire people). They were begging me to reverse this trend. So I pulled the trigger.

I've fired people for cause before- like stealing. Those are easy. Those guys know it and just leave. But this one was different. This was telling a guy he just wasn't good enough. The guy was so shocked and hurt. I can't stop thinking about the impact I just had on his life. Can't get his distraught face out of my mind. He was pleading with me to change my mind. Holy shit it's eating me up.

I feel like I'm a good manager, but I'm not sure I'm cut out for this part. Any advise on how to not be such a pussy? I have peers that do this so easily it's like they're fucking sociopaths.

My wife has been struggling with this recently, she’s forced a guy out who was just not good at his job, and everyone around him suffered for it, and probably in the larger context even some injuries and some attrition from that, but the guy himself wasn’t overly evil and he has a bunch of children.
She did 50%+ of this guy’s work for over a year, because she cared about his team, and without that work getting done it was a clusterfuck for the team. But that meant she was working 14 hour days doing her job and his job, for the same set monthly salary, and her whole life suffered. .

I say to her, it’s not a good fit. The right person in the right job should seem like a fit, not a constant scramble/struggle/mess. Making systems work well for everyone is important, leaving a problem in place because it’s uncomfortable to move him along is bad for everyone.

It’s not wrong (pussy) to care about people, but sometimes help isn’t actually helpful. Like, think of the future harm this guy might have caused, that’s not help. The whole system contains people who deserve for the rest of the system to be functional. Care for that.

Do what’s right. It’s not right to pass failing people forward. It is right to set standards and hold to them. Do what’s right.

[Core Shot]

Why the fuck did you make a new thread?

You suck

No wonder you don’t have the balls to fire someone.

[riser4]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I think we could definitely do better with our communication and evaluation process. I'm working on that.

I heard some of the staff were remarking yesterday that he was better than a couple of the other guys that had passed probation- which is exactly the point. If he's the 27th best guy out of 30, we aren't doing ourselves right by keeping him. We need to increase the quality of our crews, not continue to bring it down. This is a good government job that a guy with a high school diploma can earn 60k a year with the possibility of making 90k as a sup.

I just struggle with the human side. To look that guy in the eye and see his pain. I'm not doing well with that. I guess that's why the boss makes more. It's fucking hard.

Need to be working on getting rid of 28, 29, and 30 too.

[XXX-er]

Lessons were learnt all around. Just not the intended ones.

I doubt anyone learned anything except maybe me, I havent had a real job since and I'm spending the money they give me

over the years I found a great many things did not make sense but in spite of this we seemed pretty sucessful

made me wonder what was happening at the unsuccessful companies ?

[riser4]

I doubt anyone learned anything except maybe me, I havent had a real job since and I'm spending the money they give me

over the years I found a great many things did not make sense but in spite of this we seemed pretty sucessful

made me wonder what was happening at the unsuccessful companies ?

I'm hoping your ex manager learned something. He tried to teach you a lesson and look how that worked out for him.

[schuss]

The communication and other factors have already been hit on, so I'll add these thoughts:
1. If it isn't hard, you aren't a good manager (IMO). Management involves a level of emotional investment in people to do most effectively, and that shit ain't free
2. You did well to protect the rest of your team. Too many managers are cowards around this.
3. This is why management is hard. Fuck the sociopaths.

[mud]

If enough people said he was unsafe to be around on the job don't beat yourself up over it, people like that suck and makes a hard job even more stressful.

[XXX-er]

I'm hoping your ex manager learned something. He tried to teach you a lesson and look how that worked out for him.

If you asked the manager he would have said XXX-er has learned his lesson, don't let him go cuz this will create problems, but he didn't have any choice

the mother corp fucked up by arbitrarily doing a blanket firing just to reduce head count/ salaries but they are too big to care or for it to matter which is what they do

I was going to have to retire the next year anyhow cuz they were changing the pension so it was time to move on and the severance was just like getting that last year of salary without working for it

[PB]

I really appreciate all of your comments. I know this place has changed over the years, but it still has a lot of good people with a wide range of backgrounds-which makes it a perfect place for subjects like this. I always know I'm not going to get an echo chamber. You always get told straight in here.

Thanks.

It also sounds like it was more difficult than it should have been because you weren't part of most of the lead up i.e. the warnings, attempts to help etc.. If you had been, I think it would have been less traumatic. I had to force some one out who refused to change his ways after repeated, documented warnings, counseling, and training sessions. He actually precipitated his departure by filing a grievance against me which completely blew up in his face. Having gone through the entire lead up allowed me to mostly avoid the emotional trauma.

[Bronco]

This.
I have had to fire a number of people and none of them were surprised by it.

I had a guy with a temper once who I asked to call someone back and apologize for yelling at them and then hanging up on them one Friday afternoon. He refused to apologize so I told him to think it over during the weekend and if he didn't feel like apologizing on Monday, his employment would be terminated. Monday morning he was still adamant that he would never apologize so I fired him. He was totally shocked and kept incredulously stammering "you're firing me over THIS?" It was pretty hard for me to do to do but I think we both learned something. I learned not to be afraid of firing people for being unlikeable and he learned not to be such a dick to everyone when he didn't get his way.