OFFICIAL MLB 2022 THREAD

[BmillsSkier]

Crime Dog had his day a few months ago and will have another on warm overcast day Upstates this summer. The BWAA ballot is the only one people can get worked up over cause all the other committees (no clue how many or how they work) are only there to fix the misses the BWAA made in the first place.

Also, obligatory reminder that we really should have Benny's Hall of Very Good and Bar and Grille across the street for all these also-rans.

[Woodsy]

Fred McGriff would like a word.

And the notion that Jim Rice is a worthy hall of famer but Scott Rolen degrades the hall into the hall of very good is some funny shit.

Having been lucky enough to take a 7 year old boy to the HOF in Cooperstown there were a lot of guys I said, man I wish you could of seen him play/pitch. Rickey Henderson, Gary Carter, Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Johnny Bench, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas, Mariano, etc

Thats my test. Rice is on that list Rolen is not.

3B? Boggs and George Brett leap to mind as examples

[alias_rice]

Here is what Jayson Stark had to say about Rolen. I’m convinced.

Scott Rolen


Scott Rolen (Albert Dickson / Sporting News via Getty Images)
He was 47 votes short of election last year. And if the projections are right, he’s going to be teetering along that just-missed/just-made-it tightrope this year.



But if he misses out again, I’d like to dictate this memo to the voters who still haven’t caught on to the historic impact of Scott Rolen: You’re missing the boat on this guy. He was special.

My brain is stuck on a review of him I heard recently from one of my friends in baseball: “Isn’t he just ‘a WAR guy?’” I’m still trying to process what that means. But I think I finally figured it out:

Oh sure, Rolen has the numbers. In fact, speaking of “WAR guys,” his 70.1 career WAR is exactly the same as Beltrán’s. And no, there’s no such thing as a 70-win third baseman who’s not in the Hall of Fame, either. So what is it that Rolen doesn’t have? I think my friend was inferring that he’s missing that elusive Hall of Fame aura, whatever that is.

Well, if he doesn’t have it, I’m not sure why. So let’s recap what Rolen was, whether we can use that word, aura, to describe it or not.

He was the Nolan Arenado of his generation. What Arenado is in this era, Rolen was in his era. And by that, I mean he was a Gold Glove show every night.

I covered him in Philly when he was 21 years old. It was like watching a combo platter of Brooks Robinson meets Lawrence Taylor.

Rolen played third base with such ferocity, it didn’t matter where you hit it to the left side of the infield. He was hell-bent on catching it. And he was perfectly willing to run over everything from his shortstop to the Phillie Phanatic to do it. Then, his arm was so bionic, he could scramble to his feet or his knees — or at least one of the above — and throw you out, from the coach’s box or the Rocky statue or anywhere in between.

Mike Schmidt, your basic 10-time Gold Glove Award winner, watched him play third for a couple of years, then decided: He’s a way better defensive third baseman than I was. And guess what? That would be accurate!

Check out the top three defensive third basemen in American League/National League history, as measured by Baseball Reference’s Defensive Runs above average:

Brooks Robinson: 294
Adrian Beltre: 216
Scott Rolen: 175
(Mike Schmidt: 127)

Yet for some reason, possibly related to Rolen’s relentless refusal to self-promote, that highlight-reel brilliance has gotten lost for some people. And not just us voters. That even included his own manager with the Reds, a fellow named Dusty Baker. Or at least that’s how this great story goes, from Rolen’s former general manager in St. Louis and Cincinnati, Walt Jocketty.

“The only time I ever saw Scott brag, if that’s the right word, was one time in spring training,” Jocketty said. “Dusty was having a meeting with players, and he was talking about how all of us had to bring our World Series rings in and show the guys that this is what you work for. So he was talking about all the players that were Gold Gloves and All-Stars. And he said, ‘Look at Scott Rolen. He’s got all those All-Star teams (seven), and he’s got like six Gold Gloves.’ So Scott said, ‘Excuse me, Dusty. That’s eight. I have eight Gold Gloves.’ And it was so funny, the whole room just cracked up. And that’s Scott. That dry humor.”

He was better than Pujols! All right, so maybe not every year. But have you ever checked out Rolen’s 2004 season for the 105-win Cardinals? Albert Pujols played for that team. So did Larry Walker, Jim Edmonds and a very young Yadier Molina. None of them had a more spectacular year than Rolen. You can look that up.

In fact, it’s in the argument for the greatest all-around season by a third baseman in modern history. It included 34 homers, a .314/.409/.598/1.007 slash line, a Gold Glove and 9.2 bWAR. So how many third basemen have ever won a Gold Glove, hit that many homers, fired up a 1.000 OPS and bundled it all into a 9-WAR season? Yep. Just one. Scott Rolen. And his team won 105 games. How did that season slip through our memory banks, huh? No idea.

He was a better hitter than you remember. But it was the combination of elite leatherwork and above-average offensive production that locks up Rolen’s case.

MOST SEASONS WITH A GOLD GLOVE AND 120 OPS+ AT 3B

Schmidt: 10
Rolen: 8
Arenado: 6

(Source: Baseball Reference’s Stathead)

2,000+ HITS, 300+ HR, 122 OPS+, 8+ GOLD GLOVES (ANY POSITION)

Willie Mays
Ken Griffey Jr.
Al Kaline
Barry Bonds
Mike Schmidt
Johnny Bench
Scott Rolen*
Dwight Evans*

(*-Not in HOF; source: Baseball Reference’s Stathead)

Convinced yet? Well, there’s one more thing.

He was a leader and a winner. I’ll let Walt Jocketty handle this part. After all, he traded for this guy twice (in St. Louis and Cincinnati).

“I really hope he makes it in this time,” Jocketty said, “because I do believe he’s a Hall of Famer. I brought him over to Cincinnati in 2009, because he was the type of guy that I wanted to be around a lot of the young players that we had. Jay Bruce was young. (Joey) Votto was young. … We had a lot of quality kids that just needed to learn how to go about playing the game the right way, and how to go about their business. And he was excellent.

“So I really hope that he gets in. I’d love to be in Cooperstown when he gets inducted because he certainly deserves it. He was always such a great team player. He was a leader, especially in Cincinnati with our young players … and a winning player.”

[Brock Landers]

Having been lucky enough to take a 7 year old boy to the HOF in Cooperstown there were a lot of guys I said, man I wish you could of seen him play/pitch. Rickey Henderson, Gary Carter, Steve Carlton, Randy Johnson, Johnny Bench, Nolan Ryan, Frank Thomas, Mariano, etc

Thats my test. Rice is on that list Rolen is not.

3B? Boggs and George Brett leap to mind as examples

The eye test. The “going to Fenway or Shea or Busch Stadium to see _____” test. Not the guy you need an algorithm to remember he was good 15 years later. Sorry to Scott Rolen for not shoehorning another 3B into what I consider a hall of fame type player. Those years when he earned cursory votes for mvp (20th place wow he’s amazing!), and especially the years where he didn’t sniff a vote for mvp…who were the players in those years routinely getting top 10 votes as, effectively, the best player award. I’ll take those players in the Hall.

Derrek Lee and Scott Rolen have the same numbers. Derrek Lee!

[ex-powderbroker]

you’re giving so much weight to the same people who fuck up the awards.

i’ve gone to see scott kazmir and trevor bauer pitch are they hall of famers?

to me rolen is a better andrus jones. spectacular defense and got it done with his bat. he’d probably get more love though if he just stayed in philly.

eta: derek lee is a nice player but cmon.

[Brock Landers]

eta: derek lee is a nice player but cmon.

Exactly. And they have the same stats.

25-28HR. 280 BA 100RBI Nice player! Very good player

Rolen has more gold gloves but Lee has multiple GG. No slouch. Neither of them have GG at a premium defensive position (c, SS, CF). And how is it consistent to laud the gold gloves of Rolen, and throw shade at the same voters who did not put him anywhere near an mvp award (2004 notwithstanding) for 15 years.

[ex-powderbroker]

sure, up the middle is “premium” but 3b is a far cry from 1b.

FG has the positional adjustments as:

C: +12.5
SS: + 7.5
CF: + 2.5
2B: +2.5
3B: +2.5
RF: -7.5
LF: -7.5
1B: -12.5
DH: -17.5

[Danno]

Brock has to be trolling.

[BmillsSkier]

This is why I love HoF announcements.

Just a few weeks till pitcher and catchers report boys.

And they stole Tito‘s fucking scooter!!!

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...d?platform=amp

[Brock Landers]

Derek Lee 122OPS+. Scott Rolen 122OPS+. Strong corner infield in the hall of very good.

[ex-powderbroker]

26 1b in the hall
18 3b

lee is about 150hr and 500 hits away from mcgriff (who also got on base at a .377 clip)

turns out it’s harder to play 3b than 1b and mcgriff by your own admission js not a hall of fame 1b while rolen is smack in the middle of the 3b hof pack.

[BmillsSkier]

Sorry to break in, but they found Tito’s stolen scooter.

Protect this man at all costs.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cn2dk7sO...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[alias_rice]

Sorry to break in, but they found Tito’s stolen scooter.

Protect this man at all costs.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cn2dk7sO...d=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I hope to one day love a manager as much as you do.

[BmillsSkier]

I hope to one day love a manager as much as you do.

Get yourself a manager like Tito who just flat out wins; and has an open-ended contract. And picks up a couple-three MoY awards.

And seamlessly transitions from veteran WS rosters to 17 rookie debuts and still wins 90+ games.

Get yourself a manager like that.

[cinnepa]

Scott Rolen in the hall of fame??? Even philly thinks this is a reach. D was great but offense left a lot to be desired.

[Woodsy]

He was better than Pujols! All right, so maybe not every year. But have you ever checked out Rolen’s 2004 season for the 105-win Cardinals? Albert Pujols played for that team. So did Larry Walker, Jim Edmonds and a very young Yadier Molina. None of them had a more spectacular year than Rolen. You can look that up.

Its the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of stats, or hall guys who had a very good year. Your average baseball fan knows who Albert Pujols is. He is beloved by 3 different fan bases, Larry Walker similar, most fans could name a Molina. Unless you are a diehard Phils or Cards fan Rolen doesnt resonate. The Hall of Fame was built for people who transcend baseball while playing it. Ruth, Robinson, Ryan, Big Papi, not grinders like Rolen

[cinnepa]

^^^^hell to the yes.

[Danno]

except baseball is and always has been a game of stats. it's what people follow, it's what people recite, it literally is part of the fabric of baseball. to argue that the hall isn't about stats seems pretty ludicrous to me. and our understanding of baseball, and who is good and who isn't, is very much about stats. and we've gotten way better about how to evaluate stats over the years, we don't just go by hits and home runs and RBIs. and it's funny that Larry Walker is mentioned, because when his career ended people didn't say "hall of famer". FFS, he only got 20% of the vote his first year of eligibility. And 7 years later he was sitting at 34%. And he barely got in in his 10th and final year of eligibility. And ONLY got in because of statistical analysis that showed that a) he was great and had great numbers not just because of Coors Field, and b) while he lacked the traditional counting stats, he had a WAR that warranted induction.

No way Larry gets in with the same career 30 years ago, and no way any "small hall" guy would say he belongs.

[Danno]

FWIW, I think Rolen deserved it, but would not have been upset if he didn't make it. And the hall is full of guys who aren't more deserving than him, but there are plenty of guys outside the hall who are as deserving as him. The fact that Kenny Lofton didn't even make it to year 2 is criminal, as one example.

[ex-powderbroker]

these guys don’t want a small hall, they want a hall of superlatives:

best mustache: rollie fingers
most feared: jim rice
tallest slugger: aaron judge

“look timmy, pete rose never got an exacto box wrong at belterra park”

[Danno]

It's also hilarious that Jim Rice is a standard that Rolen doesn't live up to. Under current voting rules, Rice wouldn't be in (he got in on his 15th and final year, and they only go 10 years now).

[BmillsSkier]

Buster Olney makes a lot of good points in this article (I know, shocking for ESPN), among them that the HoF voting process is broken and we don’t know what a HoFer looks like anymore.

“Character clause” what the fuck is that?

You’ve got a sports book for a partner and a betting window inside Wrigley but Pete’s not allowed to enter a ballpark.

“We care about defense!” Then why are Omar and his 11 gold gloves losing votes every year? Torii Hunter!??

Is it the hall of home run hitters now?

How long do we pretend that MLB had a blind eye to PEDs?

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...-winner-losers

[alias_rice]

except baseball is and always has been a game of stats. it's what people follow, it's what people recite, it literally is part of the fabric of baseball. to argue that the hall isn't about stats seems pretty ludicrous to me. and our understanding of baseball, and who is good and who isn't, is very much about stats. and we've gotten way better about how to evaluate stats over the years, we don't just go by hits and home runs and RBIs. and it's funny that Larry Walker is mentioned, because when his career ended people didn't say "hall of famer". FFS, he only got 20% of the vote his first year of eligibility. And 7 years later he was sitting at 34%. And he barely got in in his 10th and final year of eligibility. And ONLY got in because of statistical analysis that showed that a) he was great and had great numbers not just because of Coors Field, and b) while he lacked the traditional counting stats, he had a WAR that warranted induction.

No way Larry gets in with the same career 30 years ago, and no way any "small hall" guy would say he belongs.

Well said Danno.

[Danno]

Buster Olney makes a lot of good points in this article (I know, shocking for ESPN), among them that the HoF voting process is broken and we don’t know what a HoFer looks like anymore.

“Character clause” what the fuck is that?

You’ve got a sports book for a partner and a betting window inside Wrigley but Pete’s not allowed to enter a ballpark.

“We care about defense!” Then why are Omar and his 11 gold gloves losing votes every year? Torii Hunter!??

Is it the hall of home run hitters now?

How long do we pretend that MLB had a blind eye to PEDs?

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...-winner-losers

I agree that it's all kinda messed up, and the PED users have been a big problem for a long time. But we know why Rose isn't in, and we know why Omar's support is dropping, acting like it's confusing is disingenuous. It's not because voters don't care about defense. Still, I agree that we don't quite know how to evaluate defense and I'm not sure we ever will. So when someone is considered the best ever or one of the best ever defensively, a la Rolen or Jones (or Omar), they get support (again, we know why Omar lost votes and it wasn't because his defense wasn't valued). But a guy who was "merely" great at D like Hunter, we don't know how to evaluate them.

[ex-powderbroker]

i completely agree we may never know how to evaluate it (or maybe we could but it may not be made public) but the available metrics for defense show as big a drop-off from jones to lofton as they do from lofton to hunter. there are some other good center fielders of the era too, obviously griffey, but mike cameron was no slouch and i’m sure i’m forgetting plenty of others.

some guy named bernie williams played a capable cf and hit for an 850ops in the postseason contributing to 4 rings (and still wouldn’t get my support unless someone like hunter got in).