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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7826
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    https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/...tail=emaildkre

    I'm a leftist of sorts. Imperialism is bad. All kinds. Even the Russian kind. We did not cause the issue in Ukraine. Full stop.

    We do however have choices on how we handle the situation. And, we definitely should not turn it into a proxy war, which it could easily become. If you think it was always a proxy war against Russia, fuck you. If anything, the Russians wanted it to be a proxy war against the west. It's a good thing they were so corrupt that the pro-Russian underground army was a complete fiction.

    We should absolutely help the Ukrainians fuck the Russians, if they want our help.

    And while I have some common ground with Naom Chomsky on some things, here is where we diverge. Fuck Putin. Fuck the systematic destruction of a country and it's people. Fuck George W Bush too. There, happy?

  2. #7827
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    And, we definitely should not turn it into a proxy war, which it could easily become. If you think it was always a proxy war against Russia, fuck you.
    How on Earth is not a proxy war in addition to being a war for the preservation of a free and independent Ukraine?

    If the Russians insist on being a belligerent force towards the free world, it is in the interest of NATO (and anyone Russia is a threat to) to have it be a proxy war with the superior alternative being a peace favorable to Ukraine. If that isn't clear, you haven't been paying attention to Russia for the last 20 years. They turned it on, they can turn it off.

    If anything, the Russians wanted it to be a proxy war against the west.
    That is an absolutely bonkers claim. Russia didn't want a proxy war, they wanted a quick capture of Ukraine, a regime change, guaranteed business dealings, and guarantee of Crimea all without any Western warfare whether economic or proxy.

    If the Cold War taught the West and Russia anything, it never pays to fight a proxy, but it usually pays to have a proxy fight your true foe!
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  3. #7828
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    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

  4. #7829
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    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    ...begins every clusterfuck of foreign policy, imperialist and isolationist alike.

  5. #7830
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    Things always get fucked up when people try to be clever.

  6. #7831
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    Word

  7. #7832
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    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
    The friend of my friend is my enemy!
    Sorry that I fucked up.
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  8. #7833
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    So, the writing is a little..,flowery, but this is an interesting read.

    https://thedebrief.org/know-no-mercy...by-themselves/


    The author buys right into their cover story. These fucking thugs are not upstanding Officer Friendlies defending law and order, they are, in their own words, a fucking Death Squad.
    They were going to Kyiv with a list of names and addresses....

    My grandpa fought [against the Nazis in WW2], and now I am here like a death squads member. -- LtCol Mikailovich

  9. #7834
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/...tail=emaildkre

    I'm a leftist of sorts. Imperialism is bad. All kinds. Even the Russian kind. We did not cause the issue in Ukraine. Full stop.

    We do however have choices on how we handle the situation. And, we definitely should not turn it into a proxy war, which it could easily become. If you think it was always a proxy war against Russia, fuck you. If anything, the Russians wanted it to be a proxy war against the west. It's a good thing they were so corrupt that the pro-Russian underground army was a complete fiction.

    We should absolutely help the Ukrainians fuck the Russians, if they want our help.

    And while I have some common ground with Naom Chomsky on some things, here is where we diverge. Fuck Putin. Fuck the systematic destruction of a country and it's people. Fuck George W Bush too. There, happy?
    That was a surprisingly good read, right through to the comments (probably the surprise). Thanks!

    From the comments: "My Hungarian father, who escaped Hungary as a young man, called them "filthy fools too stupid to be respectable traitors". "

    I think I like that better, too. "Tankies" may have accurate intent, but seems like lazy name calling.

  10. #7835
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    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  11. #7836
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    The difference between an interview of a Russian soldier/POW and a Ukrainian civilian/hostage is absurdly stark:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OlenaHalu...11047233953792

  12. #7837
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    Those interviews on utube are pretty powerful. Having them call their mothers etc. at first I wasn’t sure of that practice with POWs, but it’s basically guaranteeing their safety and very effective in getting the truth out.

    What a shit show.


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  13. #7838
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Quite the opposite...Putin's cucks fully expect him to make Russja great again, and if that means sacrificing your sons, then so be it: https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarV...ly_lost_their/

    Just saw White Mustache guy in a DW documentary put together right before the Invasion. He was a "ProRussian separatist" in Donbass, yelling at UA tanks in 2018. Now he's supposedly a ProRussian Latvian, speaking out for Ruzzia...

    Pretty sure what we got here is a professional ProRussian agitator. He and his crew probably organizes these little "ProRussia demonstrations" as well.
    No wonder he and his orc women got so worked up when the local Latvian cameraman in the Reddit vid asked how long they'd been in the country...Bluster is an old tactic.

    Julia Ioffe says that the Kremlin's policy is that there is no such thing as an organic demonstration - they're all paid for by somebody. They know this because they pay for all of the demonstrations they organize... Here we see that in action with Kremlin professional agitators ginning up fake flash mobs in NATO states.

    Point is, when you see a "ProRussia demonstration" anywhere, someone's getting paid by the Kremlin to put it on, to use the freedoms of other countries against them.

  14. #7839
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    Not sure Kissinger is the guy I would be listening to or taking advice from on international affairs.

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/h...174812366.html

    Veteran US statesman Henry Kissinger has urged the West to stop trying to inflict a crushing defeat on Russian forces in Ukraine, warning that it would have disastrous consequences for the long term stability of Europe.

    The former US Secretary of State and architect of the Cold War rapprochement between the US and China told a gathering in Davos that it would be fatal for the West by the mood of the moment, forgetting the proper place of Russia in the European balance of power.

    Dr Kissinger said the war must not be allowed to drag on for much longer, and came close to calling on the West to bully Ukraine into accepting negotiations on terms that fall very far short of its current war aims.

    “Negotiations need to begin in the next two months before it creates upheavals and tensions that will not be easily overcome. Ideally, the dividing line should be a return to the status quo ante. Pursuing the war beyond that point would not be about the freedom of Ukraine, but a new war against Russia itself,” he said.

    He told the World Economic Forum that Russia had been an essential part of Europe for 400 years and had been the guarantor of the European balance of power structure at critical times. European leaders should not lose sight of the longer term relationship, and nor should they risk pushing Russia into a permanent alliance with China.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  15. #7840
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    Ukraine says they will accept no ceasefire or peace agreement that gives any of their territory away.

    Good for them. Why give away part of your country when you are winning the war?


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  16. #7841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    Not sure Kissinger is the guy I would be listening to or taking advice from on international affairs.

    https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/h...174812366.html
    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...a-putin-232925

    from 6 years ago talking about all the time Kissinger spends with Putin. I’d say it closer to Putin babbling than advice

  17. #7842
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    Veteran Russian UN diplomate shits on Putin's insanity: https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news...575b98e83d1951

  18. #7843
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    Ukraine says they will accept no ceasefire or peace agreement that gives any of their territory away.

    Good for them. Why give away part of your country when you are winning the war?


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Dude, I don’t think there is such a thing as winning any war. I hope you are right, I hope they push them back into Russia and then everyone just quits, but I don’t see that happening without somekind of negotiation.


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  19. #7844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Dude, I don’t think there is such a thing as winning any war. I hope you are right, I hope they push them back into Russia and then everyone just quits, but I don’t see that happening without somekind of negotiation.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Russia never met a negotiated settlement that they didn't eventually break.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  20. #7845
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    Kissinger is not wrong about considering balance of power and avoiding pushing Russia into China's arms.

    The question is who is doing that pushing and whether it is avoidable.

    It seems to me that Putin is doing the pushing and it is inevitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  21. #7846
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    Russia will never be partner in an alliance with the PRC, they’ll be a vassal state. That would be bad for US strategic interests, but also likely Russian interests. Kissinger is held in regard in Beijing as well, far disproportionately to his relevance, and one wonders if this isn’t saying what they want to hear/tell as well.

  22. #7847
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    Fuck Kissinger. Full stop.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  23. #7848
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Fuck Kissinger. Full stop.
    Eww. But there is probably a fetish website for that somewhere.
    Forum Cross Pollinator, gratuitously strident

  24. #7849
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    Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Eww. But there is probably a fetish website for that somewhere.
    Umm… well that’s where your head went. Ok. Hey to each their own.
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  25. #7850
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    Next time you complain about your commute thinking it can't get any worse...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...ile_artillery/
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

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