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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7776
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    Crowding in on my turf. I’m the OBrien re-tweeter in here. SMDH.

  2. #7777
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    Germany, Japan and South Korea are fairly notable counterpoints.
    No, they aren't.

    Germany was not an interventionist installation of democracy. We stopped an already ongoing world war. Same goes for Japan. The mere fact there is a 'South' to the South Korea, and the counterpoint to that is the obvious 'North' Korea, means we didn't really succeed. The existence of South Korea doesnt counterbalance the existence of North Korea in the world or its effect on its people.You've got three examples and two of them are completely false, only one is arguably true, the examples to the contrary are legion.

    That word installing is the hangup though. We can influence things without wars and CIA assassinations and coups. In fact, if democracy is so great (which I believe it is) we shoudln't need those things and they actually undermine the cause of democracy by creating anti American sentiment that these days becomes stupidly pro China as a contrarian thing. It also muddies the waters with business interests and capitalism taking precedence over democracy.
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    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  3. #7778
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    Maybe. Maybe not. Bet thatmakes your ears ring.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  4. #7779
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Leroy, take a gander at this very concise description of the Russian playbook:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foun...of_Geopolitics

    Particularly, note the 25-year old description of the plan for the United States by the Russian imperialists:



    It looks like you're just trailing behind people who see the Putin apologists as fueling divisiveness. You're still asking questions that have already been answered. (Read a little Sun Tzu if you want a peek into how this works with China.)

    To be clear, just because authoritarians seek to destabilize democracies (because it helps stabilize their own control) doesn't make them the only source of division. They get a lot of help from quislings--useful idiots, outright traitors and Benny. (You give some boosts to the narrative that the Gates Foundation is evil--a great example of a lie through oversimplification which can scale up: "...and those biolabs!!!") Reject the attack on truth. We can get back to worrying about maximizing individual freedom when the existential threat is gone.
    I've reread Art of War twice since the start of the pandemic. Quite useful in dealing with a chaotic world and retaining sanity in a world of dis and misinformation.

    I don't say Gates is evil but hes not exactly good either. We should not trust him or Musk or any of the others. We have a responsibility as citizens of a democracy to do more than just vote, but to have discourse and find things to agree about so we can form unity and not be controlled by the rich. Anyone who trusts Gates to have their best interests at heart is a fool. That is not divisionist.


    Honestly I'm just glad you guys admit Russian interference is happening. I remember talking about it here during the last election and being told by many people that was ridiculous, specifically the idea that multiple new accounts here and on other sites arguing divisionist bullshit were possibly russian trolls, and that the people calling up rural police depts and telling them antifa were coming to get them were probably foriegn state sponsored actors. I remember being told Russia wouldn't waste time and money on that even though it wouldn't cost them hardly anything.
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    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  5. #7780
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    Leroy your focus on the fact that you’ve never had a 1:1 conversation IRL with a Putin-supporting GOP friend is part of the problem. Did you believe that people were dying from Covid before ever watching a friend die IRL from it?

    It’s well established that as fringey right wing views became seen as more mainstream in the GOP one started seeing evidence of a pro-Putin mindset built around Christian Nationalism, or racism, or homophobia, or just admiration for a ‘strong leader’. And then when the Ukraine invasion happened, this support became problematic and one could observe in real time how GOP politicians were testing the waters to figure out how to resolve this cognitive dissonance. Credible polling now shows that a smallish number (20% or less) of GOP voters buy into the Putin propaganda, which is a relief I guess.
    Oh I believe they exist, just like racists exist, but racism is also used to fuel a moral panic that far outstrips the actual existence of racism and creates more division than the racism does. Just saw an article today about a bunch of times people on college campuses reported the existence of a 'noose' hanging somewhere on campuses that turned out to be just a piece of rope, sometimes a slipknot, but not a noose. One was a wire hanging from the end of a crane. One was just a piece of rope on the ground that wasn't even knotted. I know we're told that if we are compassionate we should support trans rights no matter what, but why right now in our history are we willing to accept disrupting society and creating division to cater to the needs of less than half a percent of our population in ways that arguably don't even benefit them?

    There is a fringey left as well. And theres a lot of people who discount polarization as a problem because no the problem is just the other side.

    If we're going to overcome polarization it needs to be a responsibly that we all embrace to collectively to be more than 'right' about things, but to be productive and produce good outcomes and bridge the divide between us and those not like us.
    Last edited by leroy jenkins; 05-15-2022 at 12:26 PM.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  6. #7781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush View Post
    IMV the MAGA crowd doesn't realize they're pushing Russian propaganda and pointing it out to them just further entrenches them in their beliefs. Benny wasn't a MAGA guy and had the same issue. Certainly there are pro-Putin MAGA people as well...Tucker Carlson and several others for instance.
    Agreed. So what is the opposite of that, and how to we manifest the opposite of division? Some peoples ears are always going to be closed, but most people dont like either of our political parties these days. How do we nurture democracy and unity of the people when our government is increasingly authoritarian and owned by companies that are in bed with authoritarian foreign powers, billionaires have more wealth and power than most countries and dubious motives, and we are being actively divided from without and within?

    Much of the left doesn't realize what they are pushing is destructive either. The fact is this place is pretty left leaning, but spends more time talking about MAGA Trumptards (polarizing slur I know but I need to virtue signal I'm not a Putinist right?) than it does talking about anything productive in terms of a path forward for our country.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  7. #7782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Russian propaganda for Americans not primarily aimed at making foreigners love Putin. Only the least informed and least critically thinking would be prone to that, and there is that contingent for sure. That is secondary...

    Russia propaganda's first target is Americans "fed up" with aspects of our current system, which is a large swath. The goal is to make them doubt everything related to anything Russia is doing and refocus emotions domestically. These campaigns stoke isolationism and disrupt the mental and moral commitment needed to counter Russian actions.

    "America is corrupt. Ukraine is corrupt. We need to take care of America first. Don't waste American dollars on Ukraine. Everyone should leave everyone alone (but don't look too closely Russia doing the opposite) so fuck NATO they are parasites on America too and are just gonna get the US into trouble (that Russia might start)." -The Russian Message sold to the large swath of Americans with a jaded view of government, particularly those with a fiscal conservative or libertarian streak in their thinking, (which includes me, but I'm not buying the bullshit).

    This strategy is much more effective in achieving Russian goals than recruiting Christian social conservatives to be Putin leg humpers.
    Yea, China also benefits from this ,and even though them and Russia are not allies and kind of are frenemies, they both benefit from this.


    So how do we overcome it? I think its going to take more than just not feeding into it. Its going to take collectively waking up and realizing all our pet favorite ideas that we attach our ego to aren't as important as finding things we can all agree about to focus on and find people to elect based on that agreement and not the things we disagree about while electing people owned by corporations whos interests are far from matching our own.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  8. #7783
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    ^ totally agree. This is what’s so insidious about it. It’s reflected in the ‘both sides’ whataboutism bullshit we wade through regularly. It appeals to people who are generally not idiots but it creates idiotic outcomes.
    But at the same time there is so much valid both sides ism. The reasonable response to that isn't to check out cynically and doomerishly and just say ahh fuck it both sides suck none of it matters. If both sides have problems we need to manifest something better and have a collective responsibility to do a lot more than just vote and not feed into bad things.


    (TLDR version, all my recent posts are basically saying the same thing, but quoted different peeps because I want your thoughts and replies.)
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  9. #7784
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    Quote Originally Posted by This End Up View Post
    has shown that we need to forget the idea of “installing” democracy in backwards shit holes like……those people like being ruled by a strong man who appears to be a savvy international businessman, an astute military leader and a devout religious man.

    Democracy is just too much work and responsibility for some.
    FIFY

    #trumpcountry


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  10. #7785
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    can you republicans for one fucking second realize how fucking stupid you are? You little bitches are whining about masks while they are dieing, you gun fondling limp dicked performative grievance narcissist.
    Nailed it back in March.

  11. #7786
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    Russian state media on Finland & Sweden joining NATO: Their official reason is fear. But they’ll have more fear in NATO when NATO bases appear in Sweden & Finland. Russia will have no choice but to neutralize the imbalance & new threat through tactical nuclear weapons.

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  12. #7787
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    Agreed. So what is the opposite of that, and how to we manifest the opposite of division? Some peoples ears are always going to be closed, but most people dont like either of our political parties these days. How do we nurture democracy and unity of the people when our government is increasingly authoritarian and owned by companies that are in bed with authoritarian foreign powers, billionaires have more wealth and power than most countries and dubious motives, and we are being actively divided from without and within?

    Much of the left doesn't realize what they are pushing is destructive either. The fact is this place is pretty left leaning, but spends more time talking about MAGA Trumptards (polarizing slur I know but I need to virtue signal I'm not a Putinist right?) than it does talking about anything productive in terms of a path forward for our country.
    Ya know, most of the time you frustrate me but you just said a bunch of good shit and said it well. "actively divided" Onward ...

  13. #7788
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Russian state media on Finland & Sweden joining NATO: Their official reason is fear. But they’ll have more fear in NATO when NATO bases appear in Sweden & Finland. Russia will have no choice but to neutralize the imbalance & new threat through tactical nuclear weapons.

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    Not sure if serious???

  14. #7789
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    Talking about gun fondling limp dicked performative grievance narcissists

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  15. #7790
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    Quote Originally Posted by PB View Post
    Not sure if serious???
    A nuclear attack is serious. Sweden and Finland are taking the Kremlin's threats seriously. Putin on the other hand has made so many nuclear threats, repeated and amplified by Russian media, that the effect on some level is the normalization of nuclear threats.

  16. #7791
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    Turkey looking to cock block Finland and Sweden from joining NATO. More probable that Erdogan wants to extort them for personal gain.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  17. #7792
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    Quote Originally Posted by TBS View Post
    ^^^His analysis assumes Ukrainian govt accurately reports Russian equipment losses. They overstate the shit out of it.
    Curious what you think of his attempt to address that: https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/...70885464547329

  18. #7793
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    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    Curious what you think of his attempt to address that: https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/...70885464547329
    there’s a live stream from a Ukrainian journalist today that adds more Russian failure
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9OoSaTUiUY
    drone photoge begins at a little past 21 minutes. Kinda want to canoe around tanks now

  19. #7794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toadman View Post
    Turkey looking to cock block Finland and Sweden from joining NATO. More probable that Erdogan wants to extort them for personal gain.
    He sez it’s because both Sweden and Finland provide safe harbor to PKK. But, yeah…he’s looking for something - like making Bayraktars The Official UAV of NATO

    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    Curious what you think of his attempt to address that: https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/...70885464547329
    His analysis seems meticulous. O’Brian’s earlier tweets just said his source was UKR MoD, didn’t see anything about adjustment.

    UKR MoD claimed 1195 tanks destroyed by March 15, which they later reduced to 389

    They originally estimated 1500 casualties from the Orc’s river crossing disaster a few days ago, now saying just under 500

    So yeah…adjusted numbers good, raw numbers straight from Ukraine MoD notsomuch

  20. #7795
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    there’s a live stream from a Ukrainian journalist today that adds more Russian failure
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9OoSaTUiUY
    drone photoge begins at a little past 21 minutes. Kinda want to canoe around tanks now
    The Ukrainian destruction of significant elements of a Russian motorized rifle brigade that tried to cross a pontoon bridge over the Siverskyi Donets River on May 11 has shocked prominent Russian milbloggers. Those bloggers have begun commenting on the incompetence of the Russian military to their hundreds of thousands of followers. The attempted river crossing showed a stunning lack of tactical sense as satellite images show (destroyed) Russian vehicles tightly bunched up at both ends of the (destroyed) bridge, clearly allowing Ukrainian artillerymen to kill hundreds and destroy scores of vehicles with concentrated strikes.
    The milbloggers who have hitherto been cheering on the Russian military criticized Russian armed forces leadership for failing to learn from experience in the war. They also expressed the concern that the constant pushing of Russia’s propaganda lines was making it hard for them to understand what was actually going on.



    When the Ukrainians or the US or the Brits cut loose, you don't want to be clustered up downrange...


  21. #7796
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    Finland and Sweden joining Nato would turn the mighty Baltic Sea Fleet into Putin's St. Petersburg and Kaliningrad Bath Toys
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

  22. #7797
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    Guess we got the brutal Seversky Donets river attack, in which we were told some 400 orcs died, all backwards

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMEZtOapZ_c

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    https://russian.rt.com/ussr/article/...raciya-donbass

    All the news that ain`t fit to print!

    Click image for larger version. 

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  23. #7798
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    What's with the description of nos. 16-24 in the center of the first image?

  24. #7799
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    clusterfuck aka not great not terrible

  25. #7800
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    I know, but it's supposed to be a still from Russian (they claim, at least) video, so what sense does that caption make? And even if they stole the whole thing including the captions from the Ukrainians, that caption still doesn't make much sense to me. It makes more sense as a third-party analysis of the results.

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