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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #10001
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    You guys will maybe regain some sanity when you realize that Fox doesn’t actually support anyone. They sell division through contrarian spew and as long as they can keep everyone divided and frothing at the mouth, business is good. Same goes for CNN. It’s all fucking garbage.
    If you think anyone criticizing Fox for supporting Russia has missed that their product is division you may need to pick up a little Sun Tzu. Divisiveness and pro-Russia are a natural fit.

    Also not a coincidence that so many people who went negative in the recent past feel more comfortable in the soft glow of Russian propaganda.
    A woman came up to me and said "I'd like to poison your mind
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    Russia made it pretty clear it courted both the far right and the far left in the “West” over the past decade and bought them cheap. In the US Jill Stein and the rump irrelevant Green Party. Unfortunately for the US, the far right isn’t so rump or irrelevant.

    If you are worried about Transgenders, Gays, Lesbisns and Satanism - like Putin said he was fighting the west over today - he’s a friend.

  3. #10003
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    You guys will maybe regain some sanity when you realize that Fox doesn’t actually support anyone. They sell division through contrarian spew and as long as they can keep everyone divided and frothing at the mouth, business is good. Same goes for CNN. It’s all fucking garbage.

    You just had to throw that CNN bit at the end to make it a proper "Both sides" fallacy...

    Shouldn't have wasted your time, because CNN is an actual news source and so they are not equivalent, or two sides of the same coin, or whatever cliche you want to use to raise up Fox entertainment to equivocate with actual journalists who report news.

    I don't care that millions of Trumpstains and other dumb fucking rednecks and Russians watch Fox for their rage entertainment - it ain't news and you're wrong to try to equivocate it with news.

  4. #10004
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    Division is the core of the Russian agenda when it comes to the West. Fox plays the role they are paid to play.

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    Navalny on Ukraine/Russia

    Alexei Navalny: This is what a post-Putin Russia should look like

    Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny is serving a nine-year sentence in a maximum-security penal colony. This essay was conveyed to The Post by his legal team.

    What does a desirable and realistic end to the criminal war unleashed by Vladimir Putin against Ukraine look like?

    If we examine the primary things said by Western leaders on this score, the bottom line remains: Russia (Putin) must not win this war. Ukraine must remain an independent democratic state capable of defending itself.

    This is correct, but it is a tactic. The strategy should be to ensure that Russia and its government naturally, without coercion, do not want to start wars and do not find them attractive. This is undoubtedly possible. Right now the urge for aggression is coming from a minority in Russian society.

    In my opinion, the problem with the West’s current tactics lies not just in the vagueness of their aim, but in the fact that they ignore the question: What does Russia look like after the tactical goals have been achieved? Even if success is achieved, where is the guarantee that the world will not find itself confronting an even more aggressive regime, tormented by resentment and imperial ideas that have little to do with reality? With a sanctions-stricken but still big economy in a state of permanent military mobilization? And with nuclear weapons that guarantee impunity for all manner of international provocations and adventures?

    It is easy to predict that even in the case of a painful military defeat, Putin will still declare that he lost not to Ukraine but to the “collective West and NATO,” whose aggression was unleashed to destroy Russia.
    Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks during the Victory Day military parade in 2020 in Red Square in Moscow. (Ramil Sitdikov/Host Photo Agency via Getty Images )

    And then, resorting to his usual postmodern repertoire of national symbols — from icons to red flags, from Dostoevsky to ballet — he will vow to create an army so strong and weapons of such unprecedented power that the West will rue the day it defied us, and the honor of our great ancestors will be avenged.

    And then we will see a fresh cycle of hybrid warfare and provocations, eventually escalating into new wars.

    To avoid this, the issue of postwar Russia should become the central issue — and not just one element among others — of those who are striving for peace. No long-term goals can be achieved without a plan to ensure that the source of the problems stops creating them. Russia must cease to be an instigator of aggression and instability. That is possible, and that is what should be seen as a strategic victory in this war.

    There are several important things happening to Russia that need to be understood:

    First, jealousy of Ukraine and its possible successes is an innate feature of post-Soviet power in Russia; it was also characteristic of the first Russian president, Boris Yeltsin. But since the beginning of Putin’s rule, and especially after the Orange Revolution that began in 2004, hatred of Ukraine’s European choice, and the desire to turn it into a failed state, have become a lasting obsession not only for Putin but also for all politicians of his generation.

    Control over Ukraine is the most important article of faith for all Russians with imperial views, from officials to ordinary people. In their opinion, Russia combined with a subordinate Ukraine amounts to a “reborn U.S.S.R. and empire.” Without Ukraine, in this view, Russia is just a country with no chance of world domination. Everything that Ukraine acquires is something taken away from Russia.

    Second, the view of war not as a catastrophe but as an amazing means of solving all problems is not just a philosophy of Putin’s top brass, but a practice confirmed by life and evolution. Since the Second Chechen War, which made the little-known Putin the country’s most popular politician, through the war in Georgia, the annexation of Crimea, the war in Donbas and the war in Syria, the Russian elite over the past 23 years has learned rules that have never failed: War is not that expensive, it solves all domestic political problems, it raises public approval sky-high, it does not particularly harm the economy, and — most importantly — winners face no accountability. Sooner or later, one of the constantly changing Western leaders will come to us to negotiate. It does not matter what motives will lead him — the will of the voters or the desire to receive the Nobel Peace Prize — but if you show proper persistence and determination, the West will come to make peace.

    Don’t forget that there are many in the United States, Britain and other Western countries in politics who have been defeated and lost ground due to their support for one war or another. In Russia, there is simply no such thing. Here, war is always about profit and success.

    Third, therefore, the hopes that Putin’s replacement by another member of his elite will fundamentally change this view on war, and especially war over the “legacy of the U.S.S.R.,” is naive at the very least. The elites simply know from experience that war works — better than anything else.

    Perhaps the best example here would be Dmitry Medvedev, the former president on whom the West pinned so many hopes. Today, this amusing Medvedev, who was once taken on a tour of Twitter’s headquarters, makes statements so aggressive that they look like a caricature of Putin’s.

    Fourth, the good news is that the bloodthirsty obsession with Ukraine is not at all widespread outside the power elites, no matter what lies pro-government sociologists might tell.

    The war raises Putin’s approval rating by super-mobilizing the imperially minded part of society. The news agenda is fully consumed by the war; internal problems recede into the background: “Hurray, we’re back in the game, we are great, they’re reckoning with us!” Yet the aggressive imperialists do not have absolute dominance. They do not make up a solid majority of voters, and even they still require a steady supply of propaganda to sustain their beliefs.
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    Otherwise Putin would not have needed to call the war a “special operation” and send those who use the word “war” to jail. (Not long ago, a member of a Moscow district council received seven years in prison for this.) He would not have been afraid to send conscripts to the war and would not have been compelled to look for soldiers in maximum-security prisons, as he is doing now. (Several people were “drafted to the front” directly from the penal colony where I am.)

    Yes, propaganda and brainwashing have an effect. Yet we can say with certainty that the majority of residents of major cities such as Moscow and St. Petersburg, as well as young voters, are critical of the war and imperial hysteria. The horror of the suffering of Ukrainians and the brutal killing of innocents resonate in the souls of these voters.

    Thus, we can state the following:

    The war with Ukraine was started and waged, of course, by Putin, trying to solve his domestic political problems. But the real war party is the entire elite and the system of power itself, which is an endlessly self-reproducing Russian authoritarianism of the imperial kind. External aggression in any form, from diplomatic rhetoric to outright warfare, is its preferred mode of operation, and Ukraine is its preferred target. This self-generated imperial authoritarianism is the real curse of Russia and the cause of all its troubles. We cannot get rid of it, despite the opportunities regularly provided by history.

    Russia had its last chance of this kind after the end of the U.S.S.R., but both the democratic public inside the country and Western leaders at the time made the monstrous mistake of agreeing to the model — proposed by Boris Yeltsin’s team — of a presidential republic with enormous powers for the leader. Giving plenty of power to a good guy seemed logical at the time.

    Yet the inevitable soon happened: The good guy went bad. To begin with, he started a war (the Chechen war) himself, and then, without normal elections and fair procedures, he handed over power to the cynical and corrupt Soviet imperialists led by Putin. They have caused several wars and countless international provocations, and are now tormenting a neighboring nation, committing horrible crimes for which neither many generations of Ukrainians nor our own children will forgive us.

    In the 31 years since the collapse of the U.S.S.R., we have witnessed a clear pattern: The countries that chose the parliamentary republic model (the Baltic states) are thriving and have successfully joined Europe. Those that chose the presidential-parliamentary model (Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia) have faced persistent instability and made little progress. Those that chose strong presidential power (Russia, Belarus and the Central Asian republics) have succumbed to rigid authoritarianism, most of them permanently engaged in military conflicts with their neighbors, daydreaming about their own little empires.

    .
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

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  6. #10006
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    You just had to throw that CNN bit at the end to make it a proper "Both sides" fallacy...

    Shouldn't have wasted your time, because CNN is an actual news source and so they are not equivalent, or two sides of the same coin, or whatever cliche you want to use to raise up Fox entertainment to equivocate with actual journalists who report news.

    I don't care that millions of Trumpstains and other dumb fucking rednecks and Russians watch Fox for their rage entertainment - it ain't news and you're wrong to try to equivocate it with news.
    Ummmm…you don’t notice any political bias in CNN?
    "All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring."

  7. #10007
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    Continued
    In short, strategic victory means bringing Russia back to this key historical juncture and letting the Russian people make the right choice.

    The future model for Russia is not “strong power” and a “firm hand,” but harmony, agreement and consideration of the interests of the whole society. Russia needs a parliamentary republic. That is the only way to stop the endless cycle of imperial authoritarianism.

    One may argue that a parliamentary republic is not a panacea. Who, after all, is to prevent Putin or his successor from winning elections and gaining full control over the parliament?

    Of course, even a parliamentary republic does not offer 100 percent guarantees. It could well be that we are witnessing the transition to the authoritarianism of parliamentary India. After the usurpation of power, parliamentary Turkey has been transformed into a presidential one. The core of Putin’s European fan club is paradoxically in parliamentary Hungary.

    And the very notion of a “parliamentary republic” is too broad.

    Yet I believe this cure offers us crucial advantages: a radical reduction of power in the hands of one person, the formation of a government by a parliamentary majority, an independent judiciary system, a significant increase in the powers of local authorities. Such institutions have never existed in Russia, and we are in desperate need of them.

    As for the possible total control of parliament by Putin’s party, the answer is simple: Once the real opposition is allowed to vote, it will be impossible. A large faction? Yes. A coalition majority? Maybe. Total control? Definitely not. Too many people in Russia are interested in normal life now, not in the phantom of territorial gains. And there are more such people every year. They just don’t have anyone to vote for now.
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    Certainly, changing Putin’s regime in the country and choosing the path of development are not matters for the West, but jobs for the citizens of Russia. Nevertheless, the West, which has imposed sanctions both on Russia as a state as well as on some of its elites, should make its strategic vision of Russia as a parliamentary democracy as clear as possible. By no means should we repeat the mistake of the West’s cynical approach in the 1990s, when the post-Soviet elite was effectively told: “You do what you want there; just watch your nuclear weapons and supply us with oil and gas.” Indeed, even now we hear cynical voices saying similar things: “Let them just pull back the troops and do what they want from there. The war is over, the mission of the West is accomplished.” That mission was already “accomplished” with Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, and the result is a full-fledged war in Europe in 2022.

    This is a simple, honest and fair approach: The Russian people are of course free to choose their own path of development. But Western countries are free to choose the format of their relations with Russia, to lift or not to lift sanctions, and to define the criteria for such decisions. The Russian people and the Russian elite do not need to be forced. They need a clear signal and an explanation of why such a choice is better. Crucially, parliamentary democracy is also a rational and desirable choice for many of the political factions around Putin. It gives them an opportunity to maintain influence and fight for power while ensuring that they are not destroyed by a more aggressive group.

    War is a relentless stream of crucial, urgent decisions influenced by constantly shifting factors. Therefore, while I commend European leaders for their ongoing success in supporting Ukraine, I urge them not to lose sight of the fundamental causes of war. The threat to peace and stability in Europe is aggressive imperial authoritarianism, endlessly inflicted by Russia upon itself. Postwar Russia, like post-Putin Russia, will be doomed to become belligerent and Putinist again. This is inevitable as long as the current form of the country’s development is maintained. Only a parliamentary republic can prevent this. It is the first step toward transforming Russia into a good neighbor that helps to solve problems rather than create them.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  8. #10008
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    If you think anyone criticizing Fox for supporting Russia has missed that their product is division you may need to pick up a little Sun Tzu. Divisiveness and pro-Russia are a natural fit.

    Also not a coincidence that so many people who went negative in the recent past feel more comfortable in the soft glow of Russian propaganda.
    Dude, Fox has been devoted to division LONG before this war. This is just the most recent opportunity.
    "All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring."

  9. #10009
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    No shit Reverend, we all know that.

    Let’s focus on war updates here. There’s a thread in polyass on Fox News if you want.

  10. #10010
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    Quote Originally Posted by frorider View Post
    No shit Reverend, we all know that.

    Let’s focus on war updates here. There’s a thread in polyass on Fox News if you want.
    I hate politics!

    Back on topic: How many poor Russian conscripts are going to die between now and January 1. Tally roughly stands at 80K since February for a baseline.

    I'm saying 60K in the next 3 months, and hopefully one of them is Pootie.
    "All God does is watch us and kill us when we get boring. We must never, ever be boring."

  11. #10011
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    Ummmm…you don’t notice any political bias in CNN?
    I not only notice political bias on CNN, I also notice stupid gratuitous made-up political bias on CNN, just thrown in there to attract Trumpstains or Inner Beltway lobbyists....

    But CNN reliably reports news, which Fox does not. Huge difference, and one which I'm disappointed is lost on you.

    All "Both Sides" arguments are flawed.

  12. #10012
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    A wife and husband from Maryland have been charged with conspiring to provide the Russian government with personal medical records from the US government and military, according to a newly unsealed federal indictment.

    Anna Gabrielian, an anesthesiologist practicing in Baltimore, along with her husband, Jamie Lee Henry, a major and doctor in the US Army, allegedly provided “individually identifiable health information,” which is protected under federal law, to an FBI undercover agent posing as a Russian government employee.

    Both Gabrielian and Henry were arrested Thursday morning, according to the US Attorney’s office in the District of Maryland. After appearing in court, they were released on home detention with 24/7 location monitoring. Gabrielian also has a $500,000 unsecured bond.

    According to the indictment, Gabrielian was contacted by the undercover agent – who claimed to be an employee of the Russian embassy – in August, after Gabrielian had reached out to the Russian embassy to offer her and her husband’s assistance to the Russian government several months earlier.

    CNN is reaching out to the defendants. No attorneys have been listed in court records.

    During a meeting with the undercover agent in a Baltimore hotel, according to the indictment, Gabrielian said she was “motivated by patriotism toward Russia” and wanted to provide assistance even if it meant risking jail time. She also allegedly told the undercover agent that her husband could provide information on how the US military sets up hospitals during war and on training provided to the Ukrainian military, and warned that any information they pulled needed to be “massively important” due to the risk of being uncovered.
    In a separate meeting, Henry claimed to have “looked into volunteering to join the Russian Army after the conflict in Ukraine began,” but didn’t have the necessary combat experience, according to the indictment. Henry has a “Secret” level security clearance, the indictment says.

    Gabrielian and Henry both suggested that they provide the undercover agent with medical information from members of the US military and their families from Fort Bragg, where Henry was stationed as a staff internist, as well as from the medical institution where Gabrielian worked in Baltimore, the indictment alleges.

    Henry, the indictment says, provided to the undercover agent during an August meeting the health records of a US Army officer, Department of Defense employee, and the spouses of three Army veterans, two of whom are deceased. The indictment also alleges that Gabrielian conspired to provide the medical information of “the spouse of a government employee and military veteran.”

    Gabrielian also made plans for her, her husband and their children to flee to Turkey and gave a cover story to the undercover agent to explain their communications, according to the indictment.

    “I don’t want to end in jail here with my kids being hostages over my head,” she allegedly told the undercover agent.

    In another meeting, Gabrielian allegedly told the undercover agent that her husband was a “coward” and was worried about violating HIPAA - the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.

    She also recommended Henry read a book from the 1980s about how Russian spies were trained and recruited during the Soviet Union in order to prepare, according to the indictment.
    “Because it’s the mentality of sacrificing everything,” Gabrielian allegedly told the undercover agent about recommending the book, “and loyalty in you from day one. That’s not something you walked away from.”

    Henry told the undercover agent that if the US were to declare war against Russia, “at that point, I’ll have some ethical issues I have to work through,” according to the indictment




    https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/29/polit...rds/index.html

  13. #10013
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    Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    Ummmm…you don’t notice any political bias in CNN?
    Editorial bias and news are not mutually exclusive. CNN and especially CNN international does have legitimate news reporting. Haven’t seen much in Fox. Recall that print news had editorial bias for ever with a paper being decidedly R or D.

    That said. Lemon and the guy that got canned were largely unwatchable for me too. CNNi is pretty good outside prime time.

  14. #10014
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    Putins tactical nuke sabor rattling is more reason to provide Ukraine with all our old Abrams tanks…


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    Fuck Fox News, it is bad for America and bad for the world

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  16. #10016
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    Quote Originally Posted by ötzi View Post
    Division is the core of the Russian agenda when it comes to the West. Fox plays the role they are paid to play.
    They get paid to babysit the elderly audience (cable fees), and sell adds to that audience. After MSNBC went left of CNN talked right in part because the only people who watch tv are old and they veer right

  17. #10017
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    I hate politics!

    Back on topic: How many poor Russian conscripts are going to die between now and January 1. Tally roughly stands at 80K since February for a baseline.

    I'm saying 60K in the next 3 months, and hopefully one of them is Pootie.
    80k seems high for a death number so far, but in line with casualties? Russia doesn’t know or care what the number is though

  18. #10018
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    80k seems high for a death number so far, but in line with casualties? Russia doesn’t know or care what the number is though
    Not if this is true moving forward.
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...D-77q1ea1VrDYg
    So the world is filled with tubular entities. Food goes in one end and shit comes out the other. Sperm goes in and babies come out.

  19. #10019
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongShortLong View Post
    An interesting take on the tactical nuke issue. Kamil Kazani
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...369293824.html
    Summary: Putin and Russia look really bad if they lose to Ukraine, who they consider inferior. If instead they provoke the US and lose, that is more honorable. Putin's number one goal is to remain in power (same for his government). From Putin's perspective it might be best to nuke the subhuman Ukrianians, lose to the response, then sue for peace.

    Also Trent Telenko has a thread arguing that DC has a de-escalation faction, and that is why Ukraine doesn't have the weapons they ask for - Abrams, F16, etc.
    There's a certain irony in the fact the Insane Kremlin Posse spent months bragging about how after they take Ukraine Russia would take the Baltic countries, followed by Poland, and then all of Europe. Now they cry about fighting 'all the West', when in reality the West has so far mostly sent Ukraine spare arms and volunteers. It's nuts.

    Of course, as Kamil Kazani's thread makes clear it's not about West. It's all about Russian elites. It's foreign policy as domestic policy by other means.


    The Moscow Times writes about how even Russian elites who oppose the war are enabling Putin thus moving closer to catastrophe:

    The Russian elite claims very few in their ranks support the war. Seven months on from the start of the fighting, however, there are no visible signs of dissent. On the contrary, those ideologically opposed to Putin’s actions in private are still helping him transform the economy into one capable of sustaining a protracted war. And they are minimizing the adverse effects of the war and Western sanctions on the Russian population — thereby bolstering support for the regime.

    Everyone is adapting:

    Despite awareness of the impending catastrophe, nobody in Russia’s elite has tried to persuade Putin to stop the war for a long time. Whereas in the early months, figures like Alexei Kudrin, head of the Audit Chamber, tried to explain to Putin the consequences of his decisions, this is not happening today. According to our sources, Putin still repeats the mantra about Russia being surrounded by enemies and the machinations of NATO. Talking to him is pointless.
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 09-30-2022 at 03:15 PM.

  20. #10020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meconium View Post
    Not if this is true moving forward.
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...D-77q1ea1VrDYg
    I don't care whose side it's on, that thing is a special kind of evil.

  21. #10021
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    I hate politics!
    That's not politics as much as information pollution, a form of propaganda.
    Rupert Murdoch is worse than William Randolph Hearst ever was, and Putin is a client.




    Back on topic: How many poor Russian conscripts are going to die between now and January 1. Tally roughly stands at 80K since February for a baseline.

    I'm saying 60K in the next 3 months, and hopefully one of them is Pootie.

    Yeah if they try to rock up with T-62s and rusty AKs pillaged by 30 years of neglect and kleptocracy...they're gonna die in piles because they "didn't do politics" and didn't demand better of their government. The Russian ppl didn't chip in and keep Mr Potter from closing the Bailey Building & Loan and taking over the town...


    While we're on that subject, 22% of us are at least as cucked as the average Z-boy vatnik alcoholic, daily assaulting American democracy and law as an article of faith, led in prayer by a corrosive orange Putin fanboy as ardent and authentic as Steven Seagal. They're gonna be pissed off and out of $$ when Putin loses.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_...ion_of_Ukraine

  22. #10022
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    Quote Originally Posted by riser4 View Post
    I don't care whose side it's on, that thing is a special kind of evil.

    Flush out your headgear, new guy. Do you even know what a claymore is, or how many thousand airburst and antipersonnel mine-laying MRLS rounds Russia has fired at Ukraine?

  23. #10023
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    lol do you even know what a claymore is?
    Yes. And this is like a bazillion claymores at once that you can shoot from a few provinces away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meconium View Post
    Not if this is true moving forward.
    https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status...D-77q1ea1VrDYg
    Anti-personnel cluster HIMARS? Going to be some bad, bad nights and days in the trenches for the Ruzzians.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  25. #10025
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    Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by The Reverend Floater View Post
    Ummmm…you don’t notice any political bias in CNN?
    That seems like the wrong question. Every media outlet has some bias. Has CNN ever went into court and said, “no reasonable person would take us seriously”? Like Fox hosts have done repeatedly? I’m not sure but don’t believe so. Rachel Maddie is the only leftist show that I thought had used that defense.

    I still think any outlet masquerading as news should have to put a disclaimer on at the beginning of their broadcast (like Southpark) if they want to use that defense in court.

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