Ukraine

[summit]

So it was less an invasion and more so a special operation.

Kinda...

Russia was fighting with the Allies (Entente). Vladimir Lenin and his best Bolshevik pals were political exiles/prisoners in Europe. Germany decided to secret them onto a train to Russia as a revolutionary trojan horse, where they did their bit, and pushed a commie revolt that overthrew the new Russian Republic that had just replaced the Czarist Empire.

That's how we got the Soviet Union. Thanks Germany: may Ludendorff rot in hell.

Then Lenin did his part and signed a peace treaty with the Germans so the Krauts could put all their divisions from the East onto one front in the West while also not having to fight all the Russian divisions. This changed the balance of power temporarily back in the Germans favor, which they needed to force a favorable end of the war before the US, freshly joined, could train and transport its army to France at which point Germany would lose.

As you can imagine the Allies were super fucking pissed that the Commies negotiated a separate peace with the German Empire. As part of the peace deal the Russians were supposed to allow the Czech legions (about 5 Czech divisions were fighting for the Allies) to transit Russian and go by ship to keep fighting with Allies. Then the Commies (under German pressure) decided they weren't going to let that happen anymore, plus the Bolsheviks stated position was to overthrow all governments and they starting seizing foreign interests. So, the Allies, including Japan (70K troops) sent in something like 200-300K troops (10K US), mostly to ports, to ensure that the Russians didn't fully join the Germans (largest worry) but ostensibly it was so that the Czechs could go and also to protect various national interests from the Bolsheviks who were enthusiastically doing the typical purge-murder type shit that characterized the Soviet revolution.

It was a big snarl of mismatched goals, miscommunications, and nobody wanting to actually commit to fighting the Red Russians, although Japan was probably down to take over Siberia. Then Germany signed the armistice and almost all the Allies pulled out after the Treaty of Versailles ensured the war was over and the Russians joining Germany wasn't a worry. Apart from the Czechs, there were only about 2K Allied casualties including noncombat deaths, which is super fucking low by WW1 standards and illustrates that the forces basically were there as a security measure, but didn't engage in fighting.

Wonder what would have happened if the Allies had committed and toppled the Bolsheviks.

[LongShortLong]

When did a certain segment of America's population become pro Putin/Russian authoritarian supporters?

I think it's been creeping up on us. First, in the 90s, Russian corruption crept into democracies more than democracy and law and order crept into Russia, and that's continued. Many of our politicians and business leaders accepted Russian money. Since the 2000, the US (and its allies) has used its military in arguably immoral ways, so that weakens democracy's position when the leading practitioner acts immorally.

The internet, and online games push Russian soft power. I've noticed gamers have a more positive view of Russia, perhaps because many games are conquest or kill-or-be-killed, themes that parallel the Russian government worldview. The internet's media & ad algorithms promote outrage and worry, meaning for the last 20 years, we've suffered a strong gloom and doom theme. If democracy is doomed, why not look at the alternatives? Russia culturally is a doomer culture - their history is one disaster after another, and the commoner hopes not to be most screwed (less negative, as opposed to the US hope to get ahead, more positive). For anyone younger than a boomer in the US, life's been more difficult than it was for their parents (and we imagine it was easier for them than it was).

A long US strength has been communal trust and altruism. We work together to build institutions and things that make us all better (or we used to). This has been weakened in the post-Reagan era. If no one's looking out for you, you better look out for yourself. That starts to match the point of view for many centuries of Russians. Everyone's gonna get fucked, and your goal in life is to get fucked less than the next serf.

The US in particular celebrates contrarians, and the Kremlin produces reasonable sounding counter-narratives (e.g. Putin's essay from last Summer). RT somehow has become a popular news source in the US, and they parrot Kremlin themes. Fox also picks up the Kremlin point of view now and then, perhaps because conservatives tend to be anti-government, and the Kremlin also opposes our government (that's also sorta anti-government in its way). There's some other parallels between Russian policies and conservative fears, but I'll elide for the sake of politics.

In summary, we've all been subject to Russia's malign influence and have resisted to varying degrees. And fuck Putin.

[TahoeJ]

When did a certain segment of America's population become pro Putin/Russian authoritarian supporters?

Let’s call it like it is. When did conservatives start siding with Russia? When it became clear they were supporting Trump… it’s a fucking disgrace.

[rideit]

Funny/not funny:
This shot down Russian helicopter was carrying a looted washing machine.
So fucking pointless and pathetic.

[jono]

So fucking pointless and pathetic.

IDK. Looks like the perfect spin cycle. Do Ukrainians specialize altitude-sensing triggers?

[::: :::]

NPR had a piece on Americans with no family/cultural connection joining the Russian Orthodox Church here in the US, basically because they thought it was more white nationalist & less gender accepting

https://www.npr.org/2022/05/10/10967...rican-converts

[TBS]

John McCain 10 years ago regarding Rand Paul
“The Senator from Kentucky is now working for Vladimir Putin”
https://mobile.twitter.com/votevets/...08389208100864

[jono]

Amazon has an imported product for that:

https://www.amazon.com/Rather-Russia.../dp/B07HFTZHL9

[skisurfmirth]

Answer me this, leroy. Why were you picking your toes in Poughkeepsie? I demand an answer.

This Ukraine thread has no Connection to The French.

[ötzi]

When did a certain segment of America's population become pro Putin/Russian authoritarian supporters?

Democracy doesn't really work for a minority group with a shrinking demographic that wants to retain control. They like him and their system more than they like the way things are set up here now. So they root for him and them.

[rod9301]

Have you considered going and fucking yourself?

Why, because i don't agree with you?

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[bennymac]

Why, because i don't agree with you?

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[rod9301]

It might be, isn't this called censorship?

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[bennymac]

maybe talk to the manager?

[uglymoney]

Funny/not funny:
This shot down Russian helicopter was carrying a looted washing machine.
So fucking pointless and pathetic.

I want this to be true because it would be a good illustration into the looting from Ukraine but Twitter says it is an air intake and no room for a washing machine on an attack helicopter.

So I kind of doubt it.

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[ötzi]

It was a dryer they were using because they didn't have a working air intake. Maybe not.

[::: :::]

It might be, isn't this called censorship?

Looks more like the free market at work

[ötzi]

It might be, isn't this called censorship?

Telling someone to shut up isn't censorship, censorship is making someone shut up.

Clearly no one has made you shut up.

[rideit]

I want this to be true because it would be a good illustration into the looting from Ukraine but Twitter says it is an air intake and no room for a washing machine on an attack helicopter.

So I kind of doubt it.

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Awww, it sounded…plausible.

[bennymac]

say really stupid shit

get told what you said was really stupid

play the victim

...it's a time tested strategy

[rideit]

Don’t worry, Rod, you still get a participation trophy for asserting absolute rubbish and twaddle.

[leroy jenkins]

Does anyone in this thread, or even anyone that any of you actually know, admit to supporting Putin and wanting the US to be more like his version of Russia?

Cus you guys keep saying thats a thing, and I've yet to see it. I do see people who worry about escalation or how much the US is spending on this being accused of it, but I have never in my life met a US citizen that says anything good about Putin. I'm sure theres a few nutjobs on twitter that you could dredge up to prove me wrong, but anyone on TGR or anyone any of you actually know?


What I see is an increasingly polarized USA where both sides seem increasingly distrustful and downright paranoid of the other side, often with little basis in reality.

[subtle plague]

Looks more like the free market at work

So rod is being touched by invisible hands ?

[leroy jenkins]

I want this to be true because it would be a good illustration into the looting from Ukraine but Twitter says it is an air intake and no room for a washing machine on an attack helicopter.

So I kind of doubt it.

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I really doubt it as well, if its a KA52 theres no room for sure, but to be fair I think Russia uses the Hind as a combination attack/troop helo, and it could have room, but even then, they use it to carry troops, and even if it can techincally fit a washing machine, they still wouldn't have room because they use it to carry troops.

I have no idea which that is by the picture.

[rideit]

What I see is an increasingly polarized USA where both sides seem increasingly distrustful and downright paranoid of the other side, often with little basis in reality.

Abe Lincoln would like to have a word.