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Thread: Ukraine
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05-21-2022, 07:01 AM #7826
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2022/...tail=emaildkre
I'm a leftist of sorts. Imperialism is bad. All kinds. Even the Russian kind. We did not cause the issue in Ukraine. Full stop.
We do however have choices on how we handle the situation. And, we definitely should not turn it into a proxy war, which it could easily become. If you think it was always a proxy war against Russia, fuck you. If anything, the Russians wanted it to be a proxy war against the west. It's a good thing they were so corrupt that the pro-Russian underground army was a complete fiction.
We should absolutely help the Ukrainians fuck the Russians, if they want our help.
And while I have some common ground with Naom Chomsky on some things, here is where we diverge. Fuck Putin. Fuck the systematic destruction of a country and it's people. Fuck George W Bush too. There, happy?
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05-21-2022, 07:16 AM #7827
How on Earth is not a proxy war in addition to being a war for the preservation of a free and independent Ukraine?
If the Russians insist on being a belligerent force towards the free world, it is in the interest of NATO (and anyone Russia is a threat to) to have it be a proxy war with the superior alternative being a peace favorable to Ukraine. If that isn't clear, you haven't been paying attention to Russia for the last 20 years. They turned it on, they can turn it off.
If anything, the Russians wanted it to be a proxy war against the west.
If the Cold War taught the West and Russia anything, it never pays to fight a proxy, but it usually pays to have a proxy fight your true foe!Originally Posted by blurred
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05-21-2022, 07:29 AM #7828man of ice
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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05-21-2022, 08:51 AM #7829
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05-21-2022, 09:17 AM #7830man of ice
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Things always get fucked up when people try to be clever.
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05-21-2022, 09:25 AM #7831
Word
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05-21-2022, 09:35 AM #7832
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05-21-2022, 11:13 AM #7833
The author buys right into their cover story. These fucking thugs are not upstanding Officer Friendlies defending law and order, they are, in their own words, a fucking Death Squad.
They were going to Kyiv with a list of names and addresses....
My grandpa fought [against the Nazis in WW2], and now I am here like a death squads member. -- LtCol Mikailovich
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05-21-2022, 12:35 PM #7834
That was a surprisingly good read, right through to the comments (probably the surprise). Thanks!
From the comments: "My Hungarian father, who escaped Hungary as a young man, called them "filthy fools too stupid to be respectable traitors". "
I think I like that better, too. "Tankies" may have accurate intent, but seems like lazy name calling.
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05-22-2022, 05:40 PM #7835"We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch
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05-22-2022, 08:21 PM #7836
The difference between an interview of a Russian soldier/POW and a Ukrainian civilian/hostage is absurdly stark:
https://mobile.twitter.com/OlenaHalu...11047233953792
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05-23-2022, 03:40 AM #7837
Those interviews on utube are pretty powerful. Having them call their mothers etc. at first I wasn’t sure of that practice with POWs, but it’s basically guaranteeing their safety and very effective in getting the truth out.
What a shit show.
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05-23-2022, 11:06 AM #7838
Just saw White Mustache guy in a DW documentary put together right before the Invasion. He was a "ProRussian separatist" in Donbass, yelling at UA tanks in 2018. Now he's supposedly a ProRussian Latvian, speaking out for Ruzzia...
Pretty sure what we got here is a professional ProRussian agitator. He and his crew probably organizes these little "ProRussia demonstrations" as well.
No wonder he and his orc women got so worked up when the local Latvian cameraman in the Reddit vid asked how long they'd been in the country...Bluster is an old tactic.
Julia Ioffe says that the Kremlin's policy is that there is no such thing as an organic demonstration - they're all paid for by somebody. They know this because they pay for all of the demonstrations they organize... Here we see that in action with Kremlin professional agitators ginning up fake flash mobs in NATO states.
Point is, when you see a "ProRussia demonstration" anywhere, someone's getting paid by the Kremlin to put it on, to use the freedoms of other countries against them.
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05-23-2022, 12:40 PM #7839
Not sure Kissinger is the guy I would be listening to or taking advice from on international affairs.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/h...174812366.html
Veteran US statesman Henry Kissinger has urged the West to stop trying to inflict a crushing defeat on Russian forces in Ukraine, warning that it would have disastrous consequences for the long term stability of Europe.
The former US Secretary of State and architect of the Cold War rapprochement between the US and China told a gathering in Davos that it would be fatal for the West by the mood of the moment, forgetting the proper place of Russia in the European balance of power.
Dr Kissinger said the war must not be allowed to drag on for much longer, and came close to calling on the West to bully Ukraine into accepting negotiations on terms that fall very far short of its current war aims.
“Negotiations need to begin in the next two months before it creates upheavals and tensions that will not be easily overcome. Ideally, the dividing line should be a return to the status quo ante. Pursuing the war beyond that point would not be about the freedom of Ukraine, but a new war against Russia itself,” he said.
He told the World Economic Forum that Russia had been an essential part of Europe for 400 years and had been the guarantor of the European balance of power structure at critical times. European leaders should not lose sight of the longer term relationship, and nor should they risk pushing Russia into a permanent alliance with China."We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch
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05-23-2022, 12:42 PM #7840
Ukraine says they will accept no ceasefire or peace agreement that gives any of their territory away.
Good for them. Why give away part of your country when you are winning the war?
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05-23-2022, 12:51 PM #7841
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/...a-putin-232925
from 6 years ago talking about all the time Kissinger spends with Putin. I’d say it closer to Putin babbling than advice
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05-23-2022, 01:47 PM #7842Registered User
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Veteran Russian UN diplomate shits on Putin's insanity: https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news...575b98e83d1951
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05-23-2022, 01:57 PM #7843
Dude, I don’t think there is such a thing as winning any war. I hope you are right, I hope they push them back into Russia and then everyone just quits, but I don’t see that happening without somekind of negotiation.
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05-23-2022, 02:09 PM #7844
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05-23-2022, 02:11 PM #7845
Kissinger is not wrong about considering balance of power and avoiding pushing Russia into China's arms.
The question is who is doing that pushing and whether it is avoidable.
It seems to me that Putin is doing the pushing and it is inevitable.Originally Posted by blurred
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05-23-2022, 02:29 PM #7846
Russia will never be partner in an alliance with the PRC, they’ll be a vassal state. That would be bad for US strategic interests, but also likely Russian interests. Kissinger is held in regard in Beijing as well, far disproportionately to his relevance, and one wonders if this isn’t saying what they want to hear/tell as well.
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05-23-2022, 02:39 PM #7847
Fuck Kissinger. Full stop.
I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.
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05-23-2022, 02:46 PM #7848
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05-23-2022, 02:59 PM #7849
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05-23-2022, 03:15 PM #7850
Next time you complain about your commute thinking it can't get any worse...
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...ile_artillery/"We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch
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