Ukraine

[jono]

That’s a lie. I’ve always said I supported President Bidens plan. Probably the only one in here too. The rest of you will send your sisters over if Zelensky asked for them.

If he uses a nuke, we have to respond somehow, securing the western country, for “aid”, would be the next step. Blowing up NYC, Seattle, Moscow, London etc would not, in my opinion, be the next logical step. Give us time to dig bunkers is all I ask for.

Just for one: you put a lot of posts up about how Ukrainians couldn't use HIMARS and shouldn't be allowed to hit back into Russia. Are you suppressing that now?

[SumJongGuy]

Putin is not rational. This is why I was just as worried about Ukraine embarrassing Russia as I was about the horrific attack to begin with. The only solution here is to kill Putin. Otherwise there WILL be fallout, be it the plant sabotage on their way out or an actual nuclear missile attack.

I do enjoy seeing Russia getting their asses kicked there for now though...

[LongShortLong]

kibitz is what he meant

I blame autocorrect, but it was a brainfart.

[neufox47]

So your plan is to have your citizen soldiers just walk into a nuclear firing range and sit there?

Without any risk to Putin that the US will retaliate in kind?

That is your plan?

Sure glad you aren’t in charge. Sending in cannon fodder is not the way to peace.

I’m not on the side of a nuclear retaliation if RU nukes UA but Cono’s idea is pretty awful. Letting troops be sitting ducks on a nuclear battlefield is not a smart move.

Personally I’d think expanding the weapons platform given to UA to almost everything but nuclear weapons would be appropriate followed by announcing that any further nuclear attacks on UA will be met in kind by strikes on their behalf.

[rideit]

Putin is not rational. This is why I was just as worried about Ukraine embarrassing Russia as I was about the horrific attack to begin with. The only solution here is to kill Putin. Otherwise there WILL be fallout, be it the plant sabotage on their way out or an actual nuclear missile attack.

I do enjoy seeing Russia getting their asses kicked there for now though...

However, a power vacuum in the Kremlin offers all sorts of new, delightful threats.

[XXX-er]

Sooner or later some one else is going to have to fight Russia, the ukraine is already under attack so give them all the weapons they ask for to fight Russia,

[summit]

Sooner or later some one else is going to have to fight Russia, the ukraine is already under attack so give them all the weapons they ask for to fight Russia,

That is how I look at it.

NATO's entire arsenal is primarily made to use against eventual Russia aggression. If we can get someone besides NATO to do it for us, win win, with the caveat that it is sad that such things are necessary.

It would have been nice to have a free democratic Russia, hopefully one that would be an ally against PRC. But it is doubtful such things could ever have been achieved unless you go back to April 1917 and stop the OKW from sending Lenin-n-pals on that fateful train from Zurich to Petrograd.

[Cono Este]

Sooner or later some one else is going to have to fight Russia, the ukraine is already under attack so give them all the weapons they ask for to fight Russia,

Maybe way shits going Putins going to be shot by his own men. Hopefully before he presses any big red buttons.

[Cono Este]

However, a power vacuum in the Kremlin offers all sorts of new, delightful threats.

My bet is on the Oligarchs wanting their yachts and French hookers back.

[TahoeJ]

Maybe way shits going Putins going to be shot by his own men. Hopefully before he presses any big red buttons.

My original prediction back in March, still sticking with it.

[MultiVerse]

Russia is currently the biggest supplier to Ukraine of military aid to date:

https://twitter.com/georgian_legion/...97705651654658

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ Horribly amusing.

We are in a cold war with Russia right now.

Russia has secretly funneled at least $300 million to foreign political parties and candidates in more than two dozen countries since 2014 in an attempt to shape political events beyond its borders, according to a new U.S. intelligence review.

Moscow planned to spend hundreds of millions of dollars more as part of its covert campaign to weaken democratic systems and promote global political forces seen as aligned with Kremlin interests, according to the review, which the Biden administration commissioned this summer.

A senior U.S. official, who like other officials spoke to reporters Tuesday on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence findings, said the administration decided to declassify some of the review’s findings in an attempt to counter Russia’s ability to sway political systems in countries in Europe, Africa and elsewhere.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ical-campaign/

[PB]

So .... good time to invest in Novochok stock????

[The Reverend Floater]

The correct answer is to put Ukranian leased nukes in North Korea.

Problem solved, win/win.

[Toadman]

The correct answer is to put Ukranian leased nukes in North Korea.

Problem solved, win/win.

What was the question again?

[Tri-Ungulate]

These are problems without easy solutions. What do you do to deter Russia from WMD usage against Ukraine?

TriU's option is giving Ukraine nukes since they gave them up voluntarily for security guarantees that were broken, to allow Ukraine to deter attack, but thereby also empowering them to escalate.

Here's my krazy thesis:

1) Ukranian soldiers are already being trained to use ATACMS in some NATO country, with perhaps some select secret subset being trained how to manage Block III capable warheads.

2) High level behind-the-scenes discussions between NATO and Russian military figures, recognizing but not publicizing that fact.

If someone on the Russian side is stupid enough to threaten tactical nukes on the battlefield, Biden agrees to deployment of ATACMS to Ukraine (which they've already prolly done on the down-low - see Crimea - or are already planning to do to a greater extent).

If a tactical nuke is actually used by Russia, first phase is massive retaliatory "in kind" (but not-yet nuclear) ATACMS display of prowess (with heavily-implied nuclear capabilities), hopefully taking out some element of Russian tactical nuke capability. This would probably cross the Rubicon in allowing for attacks on Russian soil - but strictly limited to military targets in Belograd, Kursk, Voronezh or Rostov Oblasts. Importantly, Moscow is outside the range of such tactical missile strikes.

Subsequent phase is explicit or implied transfer of tactical nuclear warheads to Ukraine, in accordance with the breaking of the '94 Budapest Memorandum, that removed nukes from Ukranian soil in exchange for an agreement of no invasion by Russia, the UK or the USA.

Third phase?



That, or

[LongShortLong]

Maybe way shits going Putins going to be shot by his own men. Hopefully before he presses any big red buttons.

Unlikely to be enough (not saying it won't happen). Likely a cold conflict remains for decades, complete with continued efforts to restore the empire. Maybe eventually, the Russians throw off the sacred flawless leader model of governance (religious king). However, for centuries the Russians have used that feudal model. See Putin's relationship with Patriarch Kirill. See also recent Russian TV looking for someone to blame, someone not-Putin, who "misled" the perfect king. Most Russians may not know they could want something else. So we can hope for change, but we can't expect it.

On the restoring the empire context, I think there are religious overtones here as well. (Or I've been reading propagandist history). The story goes that Russian Christendom arose near where Bulgaria is and spread north, with some very important events in both Kyiv and Moscow. Like the Euro Christians and the Crusades, there's a religious imperative to reclaim roots, to validate identity. When Putin says Ukraine is Russia, that is true in the sacred realm*. Extending Russian-ness over Ukraine increases Putin's legitimacy by removing the heretics. Removing Putin doesn't change this. The next leader doesn't have to step into his role, but it's a natural thing to do.

* It's not true in Ukraine. Ukrainians have a separate identity and view of history, hence the occupation's need for cultural genocide.

I'm not a historian, and history itself fits a narrative.

[Cono Este]

Just for one: you put a lot of posts up about how Ukrainians couldn't use HIMARS and shouldn't be allowed to hit back into Russia. Are you suppressing that now?

Your eyes play tricks on you and I’m not walking shit back. Some of you guys are just total assholes.

I said there is no way they could operate or support those weapon systems with out the support of US personnel, or at least contractors. I think considering all the volunteers over there training people, the latter is at least true. So I’m other words, I was questioning wether Biden was holding true to his no boots on the ground guarantee.

Again, I’m the only one in here supporting official Biden policy. But yet no critism of Biden for not sending tanks etc. not a peep out of any of you.

Best prt about this thread though is where you guys tells us we have to send Ukraine anything Zelensky wants, or risk losing France or Germany, then watch you guys celebrate a bunch of accountants with 2 weeks training kick the Russian army’s ass. Which is it?

[jono]

If the boots are worn by an employee of Ukraine, a member of their armed services subject to their chain of command, then Biden is doing what he said. He didn't promise to block Americans from going over. Keeping foreign volunteers from violating the Geneva conventions is important.

We should all be complaining they aren't getting turbine-powered tanks? Or that Zelensky shouldn't get whatever he wants? Nevermind. Maybe the disconnect is just that you underestimate the value of standoff weapons and the implications of that. Or I'm just an asshole for engaging with you at all.

[Bunion 2020]

Simile or metaphor?

As Russian forces fled in disarray in Ukraine’s Kharkiv region Saturday — dressing as civilians, stealing bicycles, abandoning tons of military equipment and ammunition — Putin sounded strikingly tone deaf as he opened a giant new Ferris wheel in Moscow. “There is nothing like that in Europe,” he boasted via video-link.

Within hours, the Ferris wheel had broken down, and tickets had to be refunded. Repairing what’s broken about Putin’s war strategy and, by extension, his presidency and reputation, will be far harder.

[MultiVerse]

Your eyes play tricks on you and I’m not walking shit back. Some of you guys are just total assholes.

I said there is no way they could operate or support those weapon systems with out the support of US personnel, or at least contractors. I think considering all the volunteers over there training people, the latter is at least true. So I’m other words, I was questioning wether Biden was holding true to his no boots on the ground guarantee.

Again, I’m the only one in here supporting official Biden policy. But yet no critism of Biden for not sending tanks etc. not a peep out of any of you.

Best prt about this thread though is where you guys tells us we have to send Ukraine anything Zelensky wants, or risk losing France or Germany, then watch you guys celebrate a bunch of accountants with 2 weeks training kick the Russian army’s ass. Which is it?

lol, this is just a revisionist word salad, and an inaccurate one at that, coming from one of the main cheerleaders for Ukraine must give up because a Ukrainian victory is not possible. That's what happens when people think only in stereotypes, not evidence.

[skaredshtles]

lol, this is just a revisionist word salad, and an inaccurate one at that, coming from one of the main cheerleaders for Ukraine must give up because a Ukrainian victory is not possible. That's what happens when people think only in stereotypes, not evidence.

STOP

FUCKING

QUOTING

THIS

MORAN.

Please?

[dunfree]

Hey, it’s not like it came out today that Ukraine was willing to eschew nato to avoid the war but Putin wanted blood

[summit]

Someone tried to blow up Putin... sadly doesn't sound like it worked.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...lensky-updates

[jono]

Trigger warning, incoming reasonable cono quote:



From 2/21/22

It’s either pure genius to be waging this war of propaganda , risking our intelligence assets, or, total stupidity.

I think the threat is genuine, and the consequences worth it. But if Vlad pulls back, Biden is going to be slammed hard.

Condi Rice said he’s playing a tough hand well. I’d have to agree.

Point being, he's right that he hasn't always been Benny on this. Maybe just less drunk asshole posts would help, IDK