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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #12026
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    16. Because Fuck Pootin
    ….

  2. #12027
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    17. We guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty in exchange for them giving up nukes.

    Good luck with nuclear disarmament if the guarantee is no good.

    Also on the failed state and doomsday clock issues, the last time a nuclear state failed, we gained 7 minutes, the best ever performance. We had a glorious 17 minutes! Plenty long enough to ski a lap.
    https://thebulletin.org/doomsday-clock/timeline/

  3. #12028
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    When the Soviet Union failed there was no nuclear bomb attack. The fall of Russia will most likely be the same.

    If Russia failing as a state is such an awful unacceptable thing, then should we be propping them up? Letting them win?


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  4. #12029
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    Ohh today is nuclear thread wednesday.... lets see what the kremlin does

  5. #12030
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    Quote Originally Posted by neufox47 View Post
    No where in that article do they say the danger would be less of the West didn’t support Ukraine. The blame is solely on Russia. Nor do they say that the risk would be averted if Russia prevails.

    If you agree with that, then it sounds like your post was basically saying, “shocker - strongman nuclear power invading neighbor raises risk of nuclear war”.
    Where I’m lost is what does “winning” look like? What outcome are we rooting for?

    Is it pushing Russia out of Ukraine? Because that does not mean the fighting stops.

    Is it hoping his losses force him to the peace table for a more favorable settlement?

    The reason I ask this is because In history, to beat a determined enemy, you’ve got to destroy their war making ability, and desire to make war. And I think the a Russian people are behind this and historically have been for 150 yrs.

    How is defeating Putin any easier than beating the Japanese or Germans?

    that’s not happening with Ukraine having one hand tied behinds it’s back, and it’s probably not happening if we sent them whatever they asked for.

  6. #12031
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    In history, to beat a determined enemy, you’ve got to destroy their war making ability, OR desire to make war. And I think the a Russian people are behind this and historically have been for 150 yrs.
    FIFY

    It goes back a lot further than 150 years, but yes. And Russia knows how this works. Right now much of the western world is a determined enemy of Russia. And they can't win on the battlefield unless they can convince us to let them. That's what winning looks like for Russia.

    Ukraine winning probably means the creation of a buffer zone, complete with a heavily mined border a la Korea. You probably remember Korea. The buffer zone in this case will have to be on Ukrainian land and controlled by Ukraine because no one would trust Russia.

    If you look at a map you'll notice that the Sea of Azov and Kurch Strait are natural barriers that make it much easier to defend Ukraine's 1991 borders. That's why winning for Ukraine means getting rid of the occupiers: if they can't make the border areas fully safe from the neighboring terrorists, they can at least shrink the borders.

  7. #12032
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Where I’m lost is what does “winning” look like? What outcome are we rooting for?

    Is it pushing Russia out of Ukraine? Because that does not mean the fighting stops.

    Is it hoping his losses force him to the peace table for a more favorable settlement?

    The reason I ask this is because In history, to beat a determined enemy, you’ve got to destroy their war making ability, and desire to make war. And I think the a Russian people are behind this and historically have been for 150 yrs.

    How is defeating Putin any easier than beating the Japanese or Germans?

    that’s not happening with Ukraine having one hand tied behinds it’s back, and it’s probably not happening if we sent them whatever they asked for.
    Winning is Ukraine expelling Russia from its land as of 2014 or some negotiated settlement Ukraine desires. I don’t see how that happens and Russia keeps chugging along without consequence. At that point Ukraine has an opportunity to create defensive positions.

    No sane person is talking about invading Russia WWII style to get them to surrender.

  8. #12033
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    FIFY

    It goes back a lot further than 150 years, but yes. And Russia knows how this works. Right now much of the western world is a determined enemy of Russia. And they can't win on the battlefield unless they can convince us to let them. That's what winning looks like for Russia.

    Ukraine winning probably means the creation of a buffer zone, complete with a heavily mined border a la Korea. You probably remember Korea. The buffer zone in this case will have to be on Ukrainian land and controlled by Ukraine because no one would trust Russia.

    If you look at a map you'll notice that the Sea of Azov and Kurch Strait are natural barriers that make it much easier to defend Ukraine's 1991 borders. That's why winning for Ukraine means getting rid of the occupiers: if they can't make the border areas fully safe from the neighboring terrorists, they can at least shrink the borders.
    Good point on the DMZ idea. But that would require a peace negotiation and global interest in that. Obviously, all Ukraine can do now is fight.

    I have a friend from San Fran, interesting guy, very well liked, was a singer in a band, and now he’s an actor in Russia. I thought he was French, he told me about escaping Iran with his French mother, but it turns out his father is Russian. Speaks 4/5 languages.

    I’ve been checking his FB waiting for someone to critize him for staying, but that hasn’t happened because the guy is literally beloved by anyone who has met him. I was curious about his feeling on the war, I’d have expected him to leave, but no. He did a documentary on his great, great grandfather who led the conquering of Ukraine back in the 1860’s. I’m sure if I asked him he’d say this war is bad, but I’m not so sure. But, it sort of showed me how personal this shit it over there.

  9. #12034
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I’m sure if I asked him he’d say this war is bad, but I’m not so sure.
    Huh?


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  10. #12035
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Where I’m lost is what does “winning” look like? What outcome are we rooting for?

    Is it pushing Russia out of Ukraine? Because that does not mean the fighting stops.

    Is it hoping his losses force him to the peace table for a more favorable settlement?

    The reason I ask this is because In history, to beat a determined enemy, you’ve got to destroy their war making ability, and desire to make war. And I think the a Russian people are behind this and historically have been for 150 yrs.

    How is defeating Putin any easier than beating the Japanese or Germans?

    that’s not happening with Ukraine having one hand tied behinds it’s back, and it’s probably not happening if we sent them whatever they asked for.
    What do you base the russian people's support of this and putin off of? From my impression its the opposite.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
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    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  11. #12036
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    Quote Originally Posted by teleee View Post
    Huh?


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    You don’t understand? It’s absolutely clear to no one what he is talking about


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  12. #12037
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Is it pushing Russia out of Ukraine? Because that does not mean the fighting stops.
    Yes it does. The fighting stops because Ukraine will be armed either as a de facto or actual NATO country. It should be obvious by now that Russia is incapable of fighting a motivated modernized Western army.


    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    What do you base the russian people's support of this and putin off of? From my impression its the opposite.
    A self-selected, self-described cohort on Reddit does not explain a culture. If you want to learn more about the cultural milieu in Russia Julia Davis's Russian Media Monitor is a good place to start:

    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews

    “We’re at war against the entire NATO bloc, against 50 Satanic countries…” -- Top Russian propagandist Vladimir Solovyov

    Russia's repressive domestic politics go hand-in-hand with its imperial ambitions. If you care about the Russian people, ending its imperialism is the best way to ensure a more peaceful freer future for them.

  13. #12038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    Good point on the DMZ idea. But that would require a peace negotiation and global interest in that. Obviously, all Ukraine can do now is fight.
    The point of what I described is that if Ukraine decides to leave a portion of their territory unpopulated, filled with mines and under fire control by artillery pieces and air defense then that's 100% up to them. If Russians are pushed out of Ukrainian territory the challenges to that going forward would be down to will and ability on the Ukrainian side, not Russian lies at the negotiating table. It would be better if Russia would stop, but Ukraine can't rely on that.

  14. #12039
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Yes it does. The fighting stops because Ukraine will be armed either as a de facto or actual NATO country. It should be obvious by now that Russia is incapable of fighting a motivated modernized Western army.




    A self-selected, self-described cohort on Reddit does not explain a culture. If you want to learn more about the cultural milieu in Russia Julia Davis's Russian Media Monitor is a good place to start:

    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews

    “We’re at war against the entire NATO bloc, against 50 Satanic countries…” -- Top Russian propagandist Vladimir Solovyov

    Russia's repressive domestic politics go hand-in-hand with its imperial ambitions. If you care about the Russian people, ending its imperialism is the best way to ensure a more peaceful freer future for them.
    And a propogandist isnt' representative of the country's people either.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  15. #12040
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    so like we are letting 180k ukraines into the us
    I also find out that a bunch of people I thought were part of the polish mob relocation plan are actually ukraines
    sneaky bastards
    so this one chicks sister and her family show up a buddy is going out of his way to help find lodging and now I"m suppose to employee these fuckers
    but anyways the point of the story is the guy steps outta the car in the driveway of this nice ass house that they can stay in short term till they can get real housing and he immediately lights up a smoke the host family freaks the fuck out no one thought that these people smoke like a chimney

    at the end of the day the world keeps getting smaller and smaller
    for twenty something years your sister is telling you tales about breckenridge your country gets blown to shit a year later you end up here with a handful of visas ready to work
    I think just about all americans are clueless about how good they really have and what the rest of the world is really like

  16. #12041
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    How about polls that show him well over 50%?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...t%20presidency.

    old stupid fucks love him and the idea of bringing back the soviet empire. redditors probably skew young, don't care for him, but also have very little say over the country. Old men create the wars they don't go die in.
    j'ai des grands instants de lucididididididididi

  17. #12042
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    no one thought that these people smoke like a chimney
    Really? No one knew that Eastern Euros smoke? Does that mean Breck isn't the bastion of diversity and culture the Texans think it is?

  18. #12043
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker View Post
    How about polls that show him well over 50%?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public...t%20presidency.

    old stupid fucks love him and the idea of bringing back the soviet empire. redditors probably skew young, don't care for him, but also have very little say over the country. Old men create the wars they don't go die in.
    I couldn't find numbers post invasion? They all seemed pre invasion, although to be fair were 70% then. Although also to be fair I have doubts about the accuracy of polling in russia.


    As a side note I recently met a truly insane young leftist woman who grew up in the US but was born in russia. She said she was nostalgic for the USSR because it was less patriarchal than the US because bride kidnapping ended in khazakstan when the soviets came to power. Nevermind that bride kidnapping didn't need to end in the US because it wasn't a thing to begin with and that all the USSR's leaders were men. Also nevermind that she admitted her dad and grandpa were killed by the KGB.

    No real point just amazing that that person exists.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
    "We don't need predator control, we need whiner control. Anyone who complains that "the gummint oughta do sumpin" about the wolves and coyotes should be darted, caged, and released in a more suitable habitat for them, like the middle of Manhattan." - Spats

    "I'm constantly doing things I can't do. Thats how I get to do them." - Pablo Picasso

    Cisco and his wife are fragile idiots who breed morons.

  19. #12044
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    The point of what I described is that if Ukraine decides to leave a portion of their territory unpopulated, filled with mines and under fire control by artillery pieces and air defense then that's 100% up to them. If Russians are pushed out of Ukrainian territory the challenges to that going forward would be down to will and ability on the Ukrainian side, not Russian lies at the negotiating table. It would be better if Russia would stop, but Ukraine can't rely on that.
    I like that idea, but it has not always worked without first beating the shit out of your enemy. They would lob artillery over it and to stop that you’ve got to go into Russia. Unfortunately, with a nuclear super power, it’s just not that straight forward.

  20. #12045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I like that idea, but it has not always worked without first beating the shit out of your enemy. They would lob artillery over it and to stop that you’ve got to go into Russia. Unfortunately, with a nuclear super power, it’s just not that straight forward.
    Seems to be keeping the peace somewhat well in Korea.

  21. #12046
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    Quote Originally Posted by leroy jenkins View Post
    What do you base the russian people's support of this and putin off of? From my impression its the opposite.
    I don’t know, I’m not there. My son has two Russian friends I ask him what their parents think and of course he is clueless.

    I mention my friend above because I’d expect him to be taking flak from all the San Fran types we worked in the floor with. I also never had a bad word to say about the guy, no one does. Then as I’m checking his FB for hot Russian actresses, I see this documentary with him standing on Russian tv talking about the Ukraine war, or whatever I’m 1860. I’m like shit, no question, he hates them. Like an Israeli hates a Palestinian.

  22. #12047
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspringsposer View Post
    Seems to be keeping the peace somewhat well in Korea.
    Well, we first kicked their ass back to the Chinese border, we kicked it so hard the Chinese sent a million men over and kicked out ass back south. And I mean “we” as in the UN forces, mostly gringos. But let’s forget about Michael Caine.

    Everyone is usally proud of their country, no matter how shitty it is. That’s what I’ve learnt growing up in other countries. They’ll take our movies, music etc. but all too happy to flip us the bird, even our “friends”. I imagine Russians are pretty proud bastards.

  23. #12048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    I read that Russia is bombing Ukraine with over self inflated contrarians.
    I've heard they massproduce them on the Internet. Beyond All sanctions.
    It's a war of the mind and we're armed to the teeth.

  24. #12049
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    Knew a guy with a Russian mail order bride. Had to admire the gal for getting her whole family to the US before she dumped him. Joe is speaking on Fox.
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  25. #12050
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Yes it does. The fighting stops because Ukraine will be armed either as a de facto or actual NATO country. It should be obvious by now that Russia is incapable of fighting a motivated modernized Western army.




    A self-selected, self-described cohort on Reddit does not explain a culture. If you want to learn more about the cultural milieu in Russia Julia Davis's Russian Media Monitor is a good place to start:

    https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews

    “We’re at war against the entire NATO bloc, against 50 Satanic countries…” -- Top Russian propagandist Vladimir Solovyov

    Russia's repressive domestic politics go hand-in-hand with its imperial ambitions. If you care about the Russian people, ending its imperialism is the best way to ensure a more peaceful freer future for them.
    Ok, so if Russia is incapable of fighting nato (probably true), why is everyone worried that Ukraine is the first step toward invading Europe?
    If they invade Poland, NATO will declare war, so Russia will be crushed.

    Or any other country?
    Larltvia, Estonia? NATO countries.

    And there's no way Ukraine will be part of eu it NATO in the next 20 years or so. That's been said very often by eu governments.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

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