Ukraine

[LongShortLong]

A historian's pre-war essay on Russian imperialism:
https://snyder.substack.com/p/how-to...war-in-ukraine

quote from same:

Last July, President Putin published a strange missive about Ukraine and Russia and their historical relationship. It present the kind of argument that makes historians wince. The basic idea is that a thousand years ago there was a country called Rus, the most important city in Rus was Kyiv, and now a thousand years later Kyiv is the capital of Ukraine, and therefore Ukraine cannot be a real country, and everyone involved and their descendants must be Russians or a brotherly nation to Russians. A historian confronted with this sort of mess is in the same unhappy situation as a zoologist in a slaughterhouse. You do have expertise, and feel you have to say something, and so: oh yes, that is clearly a femur, and that cartilage was probably from a snout, and that there is a bit of liver; but this isn't your job, and you wish profoundly that you were somewhere else. So I could say: Rus' was founded by Vikings, Moscow did not exist at the time, Kyiv was not ruled from Moscow until late in its history, the story of the brotherly nations is recent, as for that matter is national identity in the modern sense. But you can't really engage in historical argument with people who are set on believing a myth, let alone with presidents who believe that the past is just there to confirm their present prejudices.

[LongShortLong]

Shameful atrocities and deliberate genocide on this scale are straight out of the SS playbook. Russia pursued a policy of extermination in Izyum and elsewhere. That's a fact whether the Russian military directly targeted civilian infrastructure, civilian houses and apartments, for bombardment or when they shot people, with their hands bound, in the back of the head. Russia’s war is genocidal from inception and is genocidal in practice.

I think it's worse. Though as I start to sketch the argument, wtf, who compares genocides? Russia aims to convert or exterminate an entire nation.

Here's Snyder again, on Russia's declaration of genocide. (The RIA Novosti article you may have missed last Spring)
https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-genocide-handbook

Russia has just issued a genocide handbook for its war on Ukraine. The Russian official press agency "RIA Novosti" published last Sunday an explicit program for the complete elimination of the Ukrainian nation as such. It is still available for viewing, and has now been translated several times into English.

See also Putin's essay from last Summer.

[altacoup]

Regardless, a Ukrainian win would be a win for anti-colonialism and anti-imperialism. There's a weird contingent on the far left in America and Europe who don't seem to understand that basic fact.

If you’re referring to me. I’m 100% behind Ukraine. But there was and is no justification for the invasion of Iraq. Just as there was no justification when we gave Sadam WMDs in the 80s to use in the Iranians. We knew he had none in the 2000s because we were his supplier. There was justification in the 90s and even Iraqi military ready to topple him on our command. Iraq invasion 2.0 led to close to a million deaths in the next decade as a direct result from that bumbled operation. Sadam was a piece of shit and so were all the people who rushed the USA to war in Iraq based on complete bullshit that they knew were lies.

[MultiVerse]

I wasn't referring to anyone here. And no argument from me that the Iraq invasion was BS.

As far as the death toll in Iraq, various official counts from multiple independent sources put the number somewhere between 100K and 200K violent deaths (higher numbers around ~600K are statistical estimates) including the subsequent civil war through February 2020. By comparison in Mariupol alone and in less than six months of fighting civilian authorities say there are already ~100K deaths, nearly a fifth of the city's population. A number that appears to be confirmed by satellite imagery of mass graves surrounding the city.

This is happening in every city, town, and hamlet Russia occupies. In liberated Izyum the Russians ruined 80% of the buildings and at least a 1000 people were killed in what was once a small town pop ~40K.

[summit]

I wonder if we put all the blood and treasure wasted on Iraq into the space program, where would we be right now? I imagine we'd be prospecting asteroids, have a Moon base, a few Mars landings, robot landers on several moons of Jupiter and Saturn, and a probe en route to another star. We'd probably still have enough left over to subsidize a lot of healthcare and education.

[Cisco Kid]

That's nice to know. But irrelevant to the discussion here. Why? Bing not nice does justify being not nice. My BFF shot 3 prisoners in the head. Sounded like a reasonable action given the details. Doesn't mean it's ok. No one needs reminders in this thread. Start yoru own thread about American atrocities in war. I'd be active in it.

[jono]

lol at lefties feeling attacked that there are lefty tankies. Stop trying to jump in the basket. There are certainly plenty on the right, but this is not about left vs right, it's about reality vs unreality.

Speaking of, here's a solid synopsis of the meme war to date in the best known meme format, Downfall for tankies:

https://twitter.com/KvotheTheArcane/...10665703059456

[gravitylover]

I think it's worse. Though as I start to sketch the argument, wtf, who compares genocides? Russia aims to convert or exterminate an entire nation.

Here's Snyder again, on Russia's declaration of genocide. (The RIA Novosti article you may have missed last Spring)
https://snyder.substack.com/p/russias-genocide-handbook



See also Putin's essay from last Summer.

That article is highly disturbing.

[Harry]

lol at lefties feeling attacked that there are lefty tankies. Stop trying to jump in the basket. There are certainly plenty on the right, but this is not about left vs right, it's about reality vs unreality.

Speaking of, here's a solid synopsis of the meme war to date in the best known meme format, Downfall for tankies:

https://twitter.com/KvotheTheArcane/...10665703059456

HAHA

“Don’t worry, Tulsi. He doesn’t mean it”


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[highangle]

HAHA

“Don’t worry, Tulsi. He doesn’t mean it”


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Yep me too. "Bwahahaha".

[frorider]

Money quote: “how the fuck did this happen?”

As the Russian front in Kharkiv has collapsed and Ukrainians who have chosen the Russian side have fled for the border, a dark thought has crossed the minds of ordinary people here: that the war may cross into Russia.

Asked where they are headed next, the soldiers say they don’t know. But it’s likely, they think, they will be sent back south “to defend the border”.

(I see Russian soldiers buying camouflage clothes, and I wonder why they don’t already have them
Marina, says a Belgorod stallholder)

The following day, some 400 National Guard troops are reinforcing positions held by the Russian border guards. Even there, an activist who was present said, soldiers were soul-searching among themselves. Within eyeshot are Ukrainian troops on the other side in a tense standoff.

“How the fuck did this happen?” one border guard said to another, two people who were there recall.

Ukraine has not given any indication that it intends to cross the border or do more than retake territory occupied by Russia. But the very idea of the Kremlin’s quick, victorious war boomeranging back across the border into Russia speaks to the realities of the defeat suffered by its forces in recent days.

“Some miscalculations were made in any case – maybe they were tactical, maybe they were strategic,” says Borzikh. “The fact that Russia thought it had come there for ever was clear.”

Like other boosters of the Russian army, he says that the recent defeats should be attributed to western support for Ukraine. “Russia is now in a conflict with a third of the world community,” he says.

[highangle]

Money quote: “how the fuck did this happen?”

"Like other boosters of the Russian army, he says that the recent defeats should be attributed to western support for Ukraine. “Russia is now in a conflict with a third of the world community,” he says."

Orly? Who's job is it to think of all those possibilities ahead of time and develop a template for a given set of eventualities such as this? Oh that's right, strategists.

And who is Russia's oh-so-clever shark-eyed 5D chessmaster strategist out to redefine the world in his image? Lord Emperor Bigdick Poot, is it not? How is it He "miscalculated" and finds himself being defeated [humiliated but never humbled] by "A third of the world community" that includes little boys and girls and scrawny old women led by a tottering old man with dementia?

I thought Lord Tough Guy was strong and made Russia strong? To be defeated so easily by an alliance one didn't even see coming... Seems Pootin miscalculated how strong Russia really is, no?

How strong does Russia calculate China to be? Stronger than Russia?

[m2711c]

stronger? da! more handsome? da! and with beautiful eyes too!

[Toadman]

lol at lefties feeling attacked that there are lefty tankies. Stop trying to jump in the basket. There are certainly plenty on the right, but this is not about left vs right, it's about reality vs unreality.

Speaking of, here's a solid synopsis of the meme war to date in the best known meme format, Downfall for tankies:

https://twitter.com/KvotheTheArcane/...10665703059456

Speaking of meme's

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/com...on_of_ukraine/

[highangle]

stronger? da! more handsome? da! and with beautiful eyes too!

The lovebirds on the far right look like Google devbros....

[TBS]

It seems the orcs have been cleaning out their missile batteries in place like St Petersburg and sending to Ukraine

Finnish News Site in English
https://yle.fi/news/3-12626182

When a NATO officer was asked about the Russian Army and how long it would take the Finnish Army to seize St Petersburg. He said, ‘not long, only problem they’d face is that the Poles would get there first.’

[LongShortLong]

"Like other boosters of the Russian army, he says that the recent defeats should be attributed to western support for Ukraine. “Russia is now in a conflict with a third of the world community,” he says."

Orly? Who's job is it to think of all those possibilities ahead of time and develop a template for a given set of eventualities such as this? Oh that's right, strategists.

And who is Russia's oh-so-clever shark-eyed 5D chessmaster strategist out to redefine the world in his image? Lord Emperor Bigdick Poot, is it not? How is it He "miscalculated" and finds himself being defeated [humiliated but never humbled] by "A third of the world community" that includes little boys and girls and scrawny old women led by a tottering old man with dementia?

I thought Lord Tough Guy was strong and made Russia strong? To be defeated so easily by an alliance one didn't even see coming... Seems Pootin miscalculated how strong Russia really is, no?

How strong does Russia calculate China to be? Stronger than Russia?

As a Russian historian for about 6 months, here's what I've gathered:

Putin in Russia is an infallible king, like all czars, and favored by god. If his policy failed it was either executed poorly, or an advisor mis-advised. Basically, when it works he gets all the credit, and if not, someone else failed. Lord tough guy is the alpha and omega. Russia is the one true country, so it doesn't make as much sense to speak of strength or defeat.

This is a problem for the west because we naturally compare Russia's leaders to our leaders. We misunderstand Russia because we don't understand feudalism. The oligarchs probably had power during the 90s, and could influence Yeltsin. This isn't the 90s. As czar, the oligarchs are princes now - they serve Putin and their "property" is his. See the reassignment of multiple Russian energy companies to Putin's friends, and imprisonment of their former owners.

Russia's political arrangement could change of course, but right now it is what it is. This is why you hear some folks saying that replacing Putin would not change Russian policy. Their system is set up such that it's natural for the leader to be czar. So, just as the DPRK dictator role gets filled by the next Kim, the next czar will be like Putin. Change is hard.

[highangle]

Well, you gotta back your czar's play. China understands, and will rule with a benevolent hand while bringing much-needed order and discipline to loyal Russian peoples.

[riser4]

The sweater begins to unravel: https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/18/asia/...hnk/index.html

[rideit]

“If you want…to destroy my sweater…”

[dan_pdx]

The sweater begins to unravel: https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/18/asia/...hnk/index.html

Putin urged the sides to prevent further escalation and to take measures to resolve the situation "exclusively by peaceful, political and diplomatic means as soon as possible," offering assistance, his office said in a statement.

heh

[Toadman]

Putin urged the sides to prevent further escalation and to take measures to resolve the situation "exclusively by peaceful, political and diplomatic means as soon as possible," offering assistance, his office said in a statement.

heh

Translation, "Oh shit, we are getting our butts kicked, and losing territory daily, so we better start talking and see if we can hold on to what we have stolen."

Zelensky has said no peace talks until Russia leaves Ukraine. Let's see who blinks first. Tough guy Putin is probably not capable of blinking though. My guess is it's going to be a long cold winter war in Ukraine, and lets see whose morale cracks first. We've already seen Russian troops morale starting to cave in.

[dan_pdx]

That quote was actually about a border dispute between Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan. Rootin' Tootin' is telling them to settle their differences peacefully

[summit]

[subtle plague]

Translation, "Oh shit, we are getting our butts kicked, and losing territory daily, so we better start talking and see if we can hold on to what we have stolen."

Zelensky has said no peace talks until Russia leaves Ukraine. Let's see who blinks first. Tough guy Putin is probably not capable of blinking though. My guess is it's going to be a long cold winter war in Ukraine, and lets see whose morale cracks first. We've already seen Russian troops morale starting to cave in.

Whoosh. And that was no hypersonic missile.