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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #7001
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    Quote Originally Posted by basinbeater View Post
    Bringing up the Yemeni Saudi situation is classic whataboutism trying to change the subject to something totally different.
    I'm no expert on the Saudi Yemeni conflict, but i believe it was Houthis who with Iranian support overthrew the government, and then Saudi Arabia stepped in with to try to restore the government. Not exactly a democratic bastion to begin with. An all around fucked up situation where we are supplying weapons to bad guys who are fighting other bad guys backed by bad guys we don't like. Saudi Arabia Yemen <> Russia Ukraine.
    Ukraine has is a functioning but flawed democracy that was taking steps to root out corruption and strengthen ties with the west. This movement to root out corruption and engage the west threatens Putin. Can't have a bunch of former Soviet Union people on his border becoming more prosperous. Would make him look bad and drive dissent in Russia. Must punish them to prevent it from happening in other areas and within Russia.
    So, he invades. This very much is autocratic kleptocracy vs democracy and freedom for a sovereign country to determine their own path. It needs to be stopped.
    Don't spew Putin's bullshit for him and call it thinking for yourself.
    I agree that putin was wrong to invade.

    I think what i started to say, a few hours ago, was that sanctions do not work, and they hurt us.

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  2. #7002
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    Quote Originally Posted by XavierD View Post
    In sequence:
    Genocide or not it is a moral imperative to those who believe in democracy and self governance to stop dictators from bullying their sovereign neighbors.

    While a true humanitarian disaster, the Saudi intervention in Yemen did not represent an invasion of a sovereign country. They entered an existing civil war caused largely by their geographical rival. The Saudi’s commuted some atrocities there but they were hardly the only ones doing it, nor did they start that conflict.

    It is in the interest of the United States and it’s citizens to live in a world where democracies sovereignty is honored regardless of size. As the strongest democracy it is our duty to take lead in establishing and protecting these international norms.
    I don't agree that we have this duty, just like i don't think it's our job to introduce democracy where it doesn't exist.

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  3. #7003
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    What are the consequences of inaction in this situation? When do we draw the line? Peace through appeasement isn’t worth it. Furthermore peace through appeasing the wants of dictators and strongmen never lasts.

  4. #7004
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I don't agree that we have this duty, just like i don't think it's our job to introduce democracy where it doesn't exist.

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    It does exist in Ukraine. Fuck.
    sigless.

  5. #7005
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    Russia spent the last 70 years threatening the West with nuclear annihilation. Russia spent the last 30 years since the Cold War ended trying to weaken the US & Europe. It spent the last decade trying to erase Ukrainian democracy.

    Now Russia is busted up militarily thanks to Ukrainian resistance. Depriving Russia of the ability to launch another land-war in Europe isn't some sinister plan: it is common sense.

  6. #7006
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    Damnit rod, simping for a genocidal maniac without pay is really individualist. Yah got me, hope ya happy

  7. #7007
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    rod9301 = Ghost of Ceaușescu

    NATO/US is only seeking to contain a kleptocracy. Will democracy flourish or even survive in Ukraine? Not sure, but better than than the bullshit Putin has put down on his watch for the last 20 odd years.

    US has had deeply flawed foreign policy subject to its own goals and realpolitik, but this is goddamn simple- FUCK PUTIN.

    Ukraine/Poland/ shit even shitbag Orban in Hungary do not want to be in the Russian sphere- maybe Romania and Moldova do? Serbia definitely does.

    Let us know about that Rod.
    The market is dominated by fat skis largely because young toughs want what they see in videos: organ donors hucking into heliski bowls. -Seth Masia

  8. #7008
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    Betcha $37 his social media feeds are a smorgasbord of misinformation and right wing conspiracies.
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  9. #7009
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    Romania wants to be aligned with Europe, not Russia. Romania has been sending weapons and aid to Ukraine as well as taking in huge numbers of Ukrainian refugees. Moldova is in a tough spot because of Russian tentacles but they too would like to be free from Russia's yoke.

  10. #7010
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperGaper View Post
    rod9301 = Ghost of Ceaușescu

    NATO/US is only seeking to contain a kleptocracy. Will democracy flourish or even survive in Ukraine? Not sure, but better than than the bullshit Putin has put down on his watch for the last 20 odd years.

    US has had deeply flawed foreign policy subject to its own goals and realpolitik, but this is goddamn simple- FUCK PUTIN.

    Ukraine/Poland/ shit even shitbag Orban in Hungary do not want to be in the Russian sphere- maybe Romania and Moldova do? Serbia definitely does.

    Let us know about that Rod.
    Not sure what you're asking me to say

    I escaped from Romania in conditions that i wouldn't want to repeat, and gave me nightmares once a year for many years.

    So Russia is not my favorite country.

    But i think the sanctions were hastily conceived, by politicians, and they do not work as intended.

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  11. #7011
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    Haste was pretty much of the essence, rod.

  12. #7012
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    Not sure what you're asking me to say

    I escaped from Romania in conditions that i wouldn't want to repeat, and gave me nightmares once a year for many years.

    So Russia is not my favorite country.

    But i think the sanctions were hastily conceived, by politicians, and they do not work as intended.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    This is what I imagined, and sorry for the pointed remarks.

    But, when you say where democracy can't take root, well Russia for sure- but elsewhere in Eastern Europe, seems like the slide to liberal democratic values has been ongoing for quite a while and that is what has provoked Putin.

    Why should Ukraine remain under the yoke of Russia when the Baltics, Poland, Hungary, and the rest of Central and Southern Europe have chosen to break away?
    The market is dominated by fat skis largely because young toughs want what they see in videos: organ donors hucking into heliski bowls. -Seth Masia

  13. #7013
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    Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    they do not work as intended.
    You keep saying this…

    Sanctions are working as intended.

    What may be different in your mind is that you somehow think they should be definitively undermining Russia on par with destroying cities or removing entire sectors of the economy.

    It is a slow motion tool that cripples the country over time. The level of crippling may not be complete collapse, tho conditions in another situation might make that one end of the spectrum of possibilities.

    Our admin & the participating coalition of countries understand this. And they still deployed this strategy.

    Sanctions have not failed. They are doing their job. They have put Russia under pressure in a number of facets of their economy.

    And yes, there are costs outside of RU to pursue this strategy.

    Perfection isn’t the standard - the world is messy.

  14. #7014
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    I'm not convinced that that's what provoked putin.

    I think Russia felt threatened by the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO.

    But probably not the only thing.

    But just like in the late 40s when Soviet union essentially occupied eastern Europe and the west did nothing, why should we get involved now?

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  15. #7015
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    Communism was horrible, why should we do anything is a hell of a take

  16. #7016
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    Finland, should we let them go? Who else is ok to let the crazy man take over and kill?

    You say you don't like Russia, but then turn around and parrot Putin talking points and whataboutism.
    What's the deal? Too much fox news?
    Just thinking for yourself, right?
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  17. #7017
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I'm not convinced that that's what provoked putin.

    I think Russia felt threatened by the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO.

    But probably not the only thing.

    But just like in the late 40s when Soviet union essentially occupied eastern Europe and the west did nothing, why should we get involved now?

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    So people won't have to go through living under and then escaping a dictatorship like you did?

    This is why I am so flumoxed by your take on this. Russia has clearly lost in the battle of ideals with its former vassal states. No one is buying what they are selling except for oil and gas.
    The market is dominated by fat skis largely because young toughs want what they see in videos: organ donors hucking into heliski bowls. -Seth Masia

  18. #7018
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    But just like in the late 40s when Soviet union essentially occupied eastern Europe and the west did nothing, why should we get involved now?
    WTAF?

  19. #7019
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    This is Rod
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    Please do not feed

    Basinbeater and XavierD - thanks for the succinct and informative posts

  20. #7020
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    I'm not convinced that that's what provoked putin.

    I think Russia felt threatened by the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO.

    But probably not the only thing.

    But just like in the late 40s when Soviet union essentially occupied eastern Europe and the west did nothing, why should we get involved now?

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    No, Putin is very much threaded by thriving free economic activity on his boarder. Makes it hard to be a dictator. Why do you think Kim is so worried about his peeps watching South Korean soap operas?

    We were involved when the iron curtain fell. Ever hear of the Berlin Airlift?

    Where is your line of Putin appeasement? Poland? Berlin? Paris? You know that little Fuck, Putin, is having wet dreams every night about the largest of Russian imperialist borders.

    Also, if you had the ability to go back to 1930 and get “involved” would you have interfered with Stalin’s Holodomor?

    This is an ongoing genocide a 100 years in the making and a tremendous geopolitical crisis. Either of these reasons on their own are reason to get “involved.”

    For fuck sake Russia hit Kiev with cruise missiles during the UN GS visit today, the same UN GS that had just left Moscow.

  21. #7021
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    But just like in the late 40s when Soviet union essentially occupied eastern Europe and the west did nothing, why should we get involved now?
    East Berlin does not equal “Eastern Europe” - lol…
    I ski 135 degree chutes switch to the road.

  22. #7022
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    East Berlin does not equal “Eastern Europe” - lol…
    West Berlin only existed as West Berlin because the west did alot, an airlift in fact

  23. #7023
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    1940's Lend Lease Act is being reinstated

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3...o-bidens-desk/
    Seeker of Truth. Dispenser of Wisdom. Protector of the Weak. Avenger of Evil.

  24. #7024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cisco Kid View Post
    1940's Lend Lease Act is being reinstated

    https://thehill.com/policy/defense/3...o-bidens-desk/

    I'm actually really fascinated by this. Ukraine already has an long history of weapons manufacturing, and since 2014 they have quite the busy bees in ramping up R&D as well as exports. Hmmmm, I wonder what might have inspired them to make such a move?

    Even if Putin's regime somehow manages to retain a chunk of Ukraine, the nation's armament industry will undoubtedly cement its pivot towards NATO. Lend-lease seems like it'll be a shot in the arm for their weapons industry. Throw in a fully-traumatized society from this war, and over the long-term Ukraine will become a military bastion. Not only will they arm themselves to the teeth for future generations, but they are going to be catalyst for other nations to follow in their footsteps and continue self-arming.

    That could be quite a shift to see in geopolitics. It may be unavoidable at this point. So fuck you Putin. I hope whatever that drove you to do all this is worth it for you in the end, because this shit is going to fuck up the world for a looooong time.

  25. #7025
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    Not entirely positive to have Eastern Europe armed. I recently saw a Europe map of percentage of citizens who felt their national territory is bounded by the current boundaries. For the western Europeans, almost everyone agreed the borders are ok. For Eastern Europeans, less so. In several countries most agreed the borders are drawn wrong. The implication being that there's a reasonable chance instability one day leads to wars of conquest.

    But yes there's likely big geopolitical changes coming. Nobody near Russia will be happy with its current military policy. Countries far away will see their food and energy supplies disrupted, causing political issues and maybe unrest.

    Did someone post about Russia hauling away Ukraine's grain stores? So many outrageous crimes, it's tough to keep track.

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