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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #10126
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The problem with the anti-war conscript narrative is polls and first hand accounts show Russian support for the war, just not for fighting in it themselves. It's not so much pro or anti anything as it is unthinking passivity that morphs into unthinking cruelty resulting in the mass slaughter of civilians. The Orc pejorative is well earned.
    Just like the war porn releases, twitter tactical speculation, etc to me its just propaganda designed to motivate and sometimes dehumanize.

    It all seems a little unnecessary considering the obviously illegal and horrific actions of the Russians.

  2. #10127
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    Good analysis, (i think, but what the fuck do I know.). Looks like that kerch bridge should be on the chopping block asap.
    Last edited by basinbeater; 10-03-2022 at 01:28 PM.
    sigless.

  3. #10128
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    I think this whole war porn thing gets a little harder for people when they stop and realize that maybe that young person getting snuffed out by a UAV delivered grenade on video might have been a poorly trained anti-war conscript pulled from their hiding spot in a refrigerator the week before and not an “Orc”. Same for the Russians who get snippets and realize they aren’t fighting “Nazis”.

    Russian conscripts need to see their compatriots dying in droves and Russian mothers need to see their sons dying in piles because of Putin and no one else.

    MAGA Republicans need to watch real close too, since Putin is their sponsor and puppeteer and they're only a year or two behind the Russians in being brainwashed into doing something equally stupid and hateful.

  4. #10129
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Just like the war porn releases, twitter tactical speculation, etc to me its just propaganda designed to motivate and sometimes dehumanize.

    It all seems a little unnecessary considering the obviously illegal and horrific actions of the Russians.
    Russia’s behavior is so monstrous it's exceeding our ability to grasp it. A marauding army of war criminals whose main purpose is to murder and destroy, all while crying about how unfair it is that anyone would dare to help their victims live.

    Putin's goal is to outlast Western attention spans but that's not happening because Ukrainian courage & sacrifice is readily apparent in the face of horrific reality. It's good that people are not looking away.
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 10-03-2022 at 01:34 PM.

  5. #10130
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    And now we have come full circle back to Fisks point.

  6. #10131
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    And now we have come full circle back to Fisks point.

    That fights are ugly?

  7. #10132
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    Fisk's point is that there is no good and evil or 'them' and 'us,' that it's all just wartime propaganda. Making that argument in the context of a genocidal war of aggression serves no purpose other than rationalizing & legitimizing Putin's arguments. Keep in mind that the last time these sort of Fisk-ean arguments were brought up here it was masses of people rallying in support of Ukraine that forced Western governments to act, not the other way around.


    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    There's an argument to be made it's the other way around, that Zelenskyys team is bolstered and fortified from the ground up by the Ukrainian people. In account after account even before the war started most Ukrainians said and continue to say, "We will win." In the West when feckless elites initially wavered people took to the streets in support of Ukraine:

    Attachment 415692

  8. #10133
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    Quote Originally Posted by highangle View Post
    Russian conscripts need to see their compatriots dying in droves and Russian mothers need to see their sons dying in piles because of Putin and no one else.

    MAGA Republicans need to watch real close too, since Putin is their sponsor and puppeteer and they're only a year or two behind the Russians in being brainwashed into doing something equally stupid and hateful.
    We don't have to wait for maga republicans to do something stupid, we are doing it now by blowing up the gas pipeline. Or at least knowing about it and not stopping it.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

  9. #10134
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    The Russians are still pumping gas into the pipeline. Which is weird because as long as gas is being pumped in, it isn’t possible to get close enough to investigate...

  10. #10135
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    The Russians are still pumping gas into the pipeline. Which is weird because as long as gas is being pumped in, it isn’t possible to get close enough to investigate...
    The only guy who knows how to turn it off is Ukrainian...

    Solution: Hot tap upstream and crossover the flow to one or more of the other nearby pipelines.

  11. #10136
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    “ Soldier and civilian, they died in their tens of thousands because death had been concocted for them, morality hitched like a halter round the warhorse so that we could talk about 'target-rich environments' and 'collateral damage' - that most infantile of attempts to shake off the crime of killing - and report the victory parades, the tearing down of statues and the importance of peace.
    Governments like it that way. They want their people to see war as a drama of opposites, good and evil, 'them' and 'us', victory or defeat. But war is primarily not about victory or defeat but about death and the infliction of death. It represents a total failure of the human spirit.”

    -Robert Fisk

    I think this whole war porn thing gets a little harder for people when they stop and realize that maybe that young person getting snuffed out by a UAV delivered grenade on video might have been a poorly trained anti-war conscript pulled from their hiding spot in a refrigerator the week before and not an “Orc”. Same for the Russians who get snippets and realize they aren’t fighting “Nazis”.
    Oh man, Robert Fisk, for all the flack that he got for being too cosy with dictators, remains one of the best war reporters ever to have lived by my estimation. He always seemed to cut through the cheerleading and zero in on the reality of the situation.

    It's certainly easy to forget about the humanity of the individual. I can't imagine the terror that those poor Russian kids must feel when they realize that their leaders have doomed them to an early death, or the sorrow of their parents and siblings. On the other hand, one country invaded the other and despite looking for some plausible evidence of anything that remotely resembles a Ukranian provocation, the only thing that I can come up with is that they exist and that pisses Vlad off more than anything else.

    I keep hoping that the Russian people will find a tenth of the courage that the young women in Iran have and they'll rise up and topple their despotic rulers. So far the Russian populace appears to be both brainwashed by the propoganda and at the same time every bit as nihilistic as the Russian stereotype would suggest.

  12. #10137
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Fisk's point is that there is no good and evil or 'them' and 'us,' that it's all just wartime propaganda.

    Machiavelli made a point that you must choose sides in an information war.


    A prince is also much respected but he is either a true friend or a downright enemy. In other words, when he declares himself without any reservation in favour of one party against the other. This will always be more favourable than remaining neutral.




    Putin has been chosen by the Russian God to expand Mordor and corner resources to lever the world to praise his name and that of his vodka kleptocracy. So we - the freedom-loving ppl of the planet - find ourselves still in a fight because this aggression will not stand in the 21st Century since the Prince of Peace passed.

    We can resume trying to teach Putin lessons in humanity when he retires back to Russia.

  13. #10138
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    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #10139
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    Quote Originally Posted by rod9301 View Post
    We don't have to wait for maga republicans to do something stupid, we are doing it now by blowing up the gas pipeline. Or at least knowing about it and not stopping it.

    Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk
    So if it was a Russian sub that damaged the pipeline, as some have speculated, USA should have attacked it first, based on suspicion of what the Russians were planning?

    Seems stupid.

  15. #10140
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    The mobilization makes more sense when Russia is this close to collapse. It seems like they waited as long as they could to mobilize and it seems likely they probably waited too long. Now they are just trying to bolster their defenses using the only option they have left.

    Untrained soldiers thrown into battle for “on the job training” will work, eventually, after lots of casualties to both the “reinforcements” and your current troops. I guess it just depends on how many draftees you are willing to kill.

  16. #10141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buke View Post
    <snip> at the same time every bit as nihilistic as the Russian stereotype would suggest.
    Nihilists? Fuck me.

  17. #10142
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    Ukraine is winning but the window for success is not infinite. The West is still not doing enough, giving enough, for them to win quickly. The most telling evidence for this simple fact is that they don't have the equipment needed to sustain an attack long enough to rout the Russian army. Instead it's mostly incremental gains at very high cost.

    Russia still has the the advantage in terms of size (30x larger), population (3.5x), and economy (10x). It's important not to lose sight of those facts. So with respect to Fisk and Russia's unprovoked invasion I would simplify his formulation: propaganda can kill, words can save, and it's important to act when we know the difference.

  18. #10143
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    And now we have come full circle back to Fisks point.
    it’s more of an attitude than a point really, and one that strips agency from individuals and assigns it to some other. I doubt most Ukrainians needed government “propaganda” to see Russian shittiness.

    until the mobilization two weeks ago Russian soldiers - even officers - Could refuse to go Ukraine. Apparently hundreds did.

  19. #10144
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    So if it was a Russian sub that damaged the pipeline, as some have speculated, USA should have attacked it first, based on suspicion of what the Russians were planning?

    Seems stupid.
    Don't quote the bot. Please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  20. #10145
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Ukraine is winning but the window for success is not infinite. The West is still not doing enough, giving enough, for them to win quickly.

    dIPlomMacY through the media. I would say this is helpful.
    Petraeus: US would destroy Russia’s troops if Putin uses nuclear weapons in Ukraine
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...david-petraeus

  21. #10146
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Ukraine is winning but the window for success is not infinite. The West is still not doing enough, giving enough, for them to win quickly. The most telling evidence for this simple fact is that they don't have the equipment needed to sustain an attack long enough to rout the Russian army. Instead it's mostly incremental gains at very high cost.

    Russia still has the the advantage in terms of size (30x larger), population (3.5x), and economy (10x). It's important not to lose sight of those facts. So with respect to Fisk and Russia's unprovoked invasion I would simplify his formulation: propaganda can kill, words can save, and it's important to act when we know the difference.
    How many months, yrs, before the west slows down aid? Maybe I’m under estimating the power of greed, profits, etc,

  22. #10147
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    I just wanted to say that Elon Musk is a coward, a traitor, and a stinking hippy.

  23. #10148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mud View Post
    dIPlomMacY through the media. I would say this is helpful.
    Petraeus: US would destroy Russia’s troops if Putin uses nuclear weapons in Ukraine
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...david-petraeus
    Not clear to me how this helps Ukraine. It mainly solves Putin's problems - Russians avoid defeat by Ukraine, and there's no bitter military that could depose him. Hmm... Russian occupiers destroyed... guess that does help Ukraine and Putin can save face while ending the war. I withdraw my objection.

    Hopefully we can get to a similar end state with less killing

  24. #10149
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    Zelensky ratio'd a trophy Boer with 1 question?

    Throw it on the pile. Dude is made of win.


    A Muscovite here. I know our president is really changing lives. My uncle has not been able to walk for two months due to pain, but after hearing one of his speeches, he was able to get up and turn the TV off! Miracle.

  25. #10150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cono Este View Post
    I just wanted to say that Elon Musk is a coward, a traitor, and a stinking hippy.
    "Same as it ever was", D. Byrne
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

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