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Thread: Ukraine

  1. #11176
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Didn’t the UN just come out and say they had evidence of both sides committing war crimes? I can’t find the article now for some reason but as I recall once you get a few paragraphs in it’s obvious it’s pretty heavily weighted on the RUS side especially torture and targeting of civilians.

    Found it: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ys-2022-11-15/

    Jumping back to Iraq rod is obviously stirring shit. However, the damage to US credibility caused by the made up reasons for going to war there will be with us for a long time as will doing shit like pardoning war criminals.
    Not just heavily weighted, war crimes are relatively isolated on one side and are systemic on the other. All armies commit war crimes due to the nature of war. The question is whether they try to prevent them or encourage them. Russia encourages terror and torture.

    The key point in the article, "Asked to compare the scale of the abuses by both sides, Bogner said the mistreatment of Ukrainian prisoners by Russians was "fairly systematic" whereas she said it was "not systematic" for Ukraine to mistreat Russian soldiers."

    That fact is Putin and the Russian army recognize zero moral boundaries, zero constraints, in their genocidal campaign against Ukraine. Today, in Ukraine, Russian soldiers rape women, kidnap children, target children with artillery shells & missiles, and mutilate soldiers they've taken captive. It's a campaign of mass slaughter.

  2. #11177
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    How much new old stock is Russia sitting on?

    https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/...43104527294464

    Maybe they should gtfo of Ukraine and start listing some 1980's NF Summit Series on Ebay - that would be wayyyy cooler.
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  3. #11178
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    Just in time for Christmas shopping:

    “How to Tankie” is the anti-imperialist’s guide for the modern world. This book guides you on correct ways to argue against colonialists, war-shills and imperialists in a manner that is unconstrained by facts, logic, reason, or consistency. It covers the most important principles which you must follow to be the right side of history on every issue compared to those corporatist war shills who want to end humanity in a nuclear war. All of the main tenets of anti-imperialism are covered, and each chapter ends with a helpful quiz to guide you on your journey to a higher, morally superior worldview. At the end there is a quiz to test your knowledge so you can see if you’re a professor emeritus of tankiedom or just an imperialist lickspittle in the pay of the CIA.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BLYBM37P...E9J7FB8W76SH_0

  4. #11179
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    NATO could declare a defensive war against Russia if they wanted to:

    ^ NATO doesn't want to shoot Russians, never has, and everyone knows it. (everyone serious)

    Also, Telenko argues why the missile may have been Russian:
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...511932929.html
    ^ shrapnel evidence (lack of) suggests a Russian ground attack

    Telenko on why the E-3 "radar evidence" stinks:
    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...964204550.html

    I don't think Telenko's arguments sum up to proof, but it seems plausible.

  5. #11180
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    article says poopin almost went to war against japan instead of ukraine. i assume politically that attacking a country with no military might not have gone over well? and china probably doesn’t want the us navy going over to keep the peace.

    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-plan...etters-1762133
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  6. #11181
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    Putin must have forgotten how the last Russo Japanese war ended
    Especially the adventures of the Tsar’s navy

  7. #11182
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    Chalk another one up for the russian nazis

    The retreating Russian army fully robbed the Kakhovka local history museum before retreating from the west bank of the Dnipro river in Kherson Oblast, Ukraine’s Center for National Resistance reported.
    In early November, the occupiers stole 15,000 paintings from the Kherson Art Museum, as well as the plumbing, including toilets, and household appliances.
    https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/11/...herson-oblast/

    6,000 civilians dead, 11,000 wounded, thousands abducted, including up to 8,000 children. The list goes on and on...

  8. #11183
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    Tuesday is soylent green day.
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  9. #11184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex-powderbroker View Post
    article says poopin almost went to war against japan instead of ukraine. i assume politically that attacking a country with no military might not have gone over well? and china probably doesn’t want the us navy going over to keep the peace.

    https://www.newsweek.com/russia-plan...etters-1762133
    Japan has a military


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  10. #11185
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    ^^ almost a quarter-million active personnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces

  11. #11186
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    No shit, well fuck Putler anyway
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  12. #11187
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    Japan is a major non-NATO ally and we are treaty bound to defend them, have been for over 60 years, and they are under the the US Extended Nuclear Deterrence umbrella.

    Russia attacking Japan would have resulted in immediate involvement of the US. Between USN/USAF and JADSF/JMSDF, it would have been the Battle of Tsushima 2.0 (ie no more Russian fleet).

    So Putin would have considered all that over whether we wanted to fight a naval/air war over some shitty little islands, and realized that Ukraine was a better bet.
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  13. #11188
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    In addition to Japan having some of the world's best powder, they've been doing great diplomatic work. While the US has been busy with internal division these last years, Japan kept TPP moving, and kept communications strong among the US's natural allies. They've had our back, quietly and effectively.

  14. #11189
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    Millions in Ukraine still living without power days after Russia launched a mass missile attack on Ukraine's civilian infrastructure. Crazy to see Ukraine nearly as dark at night as the Black Sea itself:

    Name:  Ukraine at Night.jpg
Views: 422
Size:  98.3 KB

  15. #11190
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    Another view: Warning- Opinion.

    Congress can end the war in Ukraine and win a Nobel Peace Prize by enacting a statute withdrawing the United States from NATO — transforming it from a mighty offensive oak into a tiny acorn unalarming to Russia.  

    As early as 1798, Congress nullified a defense treaty with France by statute. A congressional end to United States participation in NATO would be no constitutional novelty.  

    At the very latest, NATO became obsolete in 1991 when its raison d’etre — the Soviet Empire — dissolved. By remaining in NATO and spearheading its expansion to Russia’s borders with 30 members, the United States provoked President Vladimir Putin’s attack on Ukraine. It was poised to join NATO to fortify the encirclement of an already diminished Russia constituting a greater existential threat to it than the existential threat the Cuban missile crisis posed to the United States.  

    By withdrawing from NATO, Congress would end the existential threat that occasioned Putin’s invasion of Ukraine and extinguish the executive branch’s ambition for regime change or weakening Russia. The United States is NATO’s locomotive and the other members collectively the caboose. Congressional withdrawal would permit Putin to save face if he ended Russia’s military and political debacle in Ukraine by asserting that his war aim had been achieved. 

    The nuclear and conventional military forces the United States can summon to destroy Russia or defend NATO members are staggering. The annual national security expenditures of the United States approach $1.7 trillion. We are the most secure nation in the history of the world. Europe’s NATO members sent the United States an SOS to pacify convulsions in its own backyard when Yugoslavia began to fragment in 1991. Russian forces were deterred from assisting their Serbian friends, as post-Soviet Russia had become a member of the United Nations. United States forces remain in Kosovo, which has pleaded for a permanent United States military base. In sum, NATO without the United States is a paper tiger and no existential threat to Russia with or without Ukraine. 

    But Russia is a paper tiger as well. Its military forces have performed miserably in Ukraine. It has been forced to rely on Iran for weapons. Russia’s military spending is a fraction of the collective defense budgets of Europe’s NATO members. The European Union’s GDP is more than eight times Russia’s, and the EU’s per capita GDP is more than double Russia’s corresponding figure.   

    Further, Russia has witnessed an incalculable brain drain because of its Ukraine war. Its 145 million population is down by nearly half a million since the start of the year. 

    In sum, Russia is no military threat to Europe’s NATO members. Not even close. The United States departing NATO would not leave them in the lurch. 

    Withdrawal from NATO by congressional statute and consequent termination of Russia’s war in Ukraine would save the United States hundreds of billions of dollars. The United States is on track to spend over $100 billion to support Ukraine in less than one year. The war shows no sign of ending in the foreseeable future as long as the United States remains in NATO.   

    Diplomacy is a non-starter. Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky insists on recapturing all territory occupied by Russia, including Crimea. Russia’s industrial-scale war crimes have steeled the Ukrainian people against any concessions. Putin’s propaganda and boasts would make any diplomatic settlement that would deny Russia territorial aggrandizement at Ukraine’s expense unthinkable.  

    In other words, the Ukraine war will drag on and on indefinitely draining the United States of $100 billion annually if diplomacy is the exit strategy in lieu of NATO withdrawal.   

    Congress would burnish its own image and be lauded as peacemakers worldwide if it set in motion the termination of the Ukraine war by a statute ending United States NATO membership. It would also begin a desperately needed challenge to an imperial presidency.  

    Bruce Fein was associate deputy attorney general under President Reagan and is the author of “American Empire Before The Fall.” 
    Comments?
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

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  16. #11191
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    Ukraine

    Not sure if it’s chicken/egg or cart/horse…

    US leaving NATO is 1D chess

    NATO demonstrates its usefulness daily despite the provenance as a military org. The ability to get along and collectively manage international cooperation is the strength of that entity.

    Leaving it is akin shooting ourselves and the partner nations in the foot

    And it does zero to discourage Russian imperialism

    Just my not very studied 2 cents

  17. #11192
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    LOL @ "the existential threat that occasioned Putin’s invasion of Ukraine..."

    Tankies gonna tankie.

    If NATO wanted to kill Russians they had a perfect opportunity with the landing of Russian missile bits in Poland. Russia wasn't going to get access to the evidence, so even if the origin evidence was weak, if the objective was to escalate it would have happened. Russia was culpable and that could have been enough.

    What needs to happen is that NATO and/or the US needs to create policy mechanisms by which Russia triggers their own punishments. For every missile that crosses into Ukraine we send 1 ATACMS, 2 HARMS, and 3 regular HIMARS rockets. Etc.

  18. #11193
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    Capitulation is always the answer. Always.

  19. #11194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Another view (Bruce Fein)
    Bruce Fein is in need of a reality check because NATO expansion did not cause the war in Ukraine. It's an unrealistic view of Russia. What's more, US and NATO officials repeatedly assured Putin that Ukraine would not join NATO. And since according to Fein Russia is a paper tiger neither the United States nor NATO has any reason to kowtow before Russia's security interests. Russia should steer clear of NATO, not the other way around.

    Bruce Fein's opinion is almost entirely based on John Mearsheimer’s pontifications. A person could call Mearsheimer a useful idiot, only after reading a recent interview at this point in obvious mental decline is he even really useful? Crackpot 'realists' like Fein and Mearsheimer are becoming parodies of themselves.

  20. #11195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Another view: Warning- Opinion.

    Comments?
    There’s no shortage of irrelevant dc retirees willing to say stuff for $ or the pretense of being relevant

  21. #11196
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    The “you made me hit you” argument is so fucking tired.


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  22. #11197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skistack View Post
    The “you made me hit you” argument is so fucking tired.


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    If it works in high school movies from the 80s why not in international politics?
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  23. #11198
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    Still, i think NATO is an organization that like all others, is interested in surviving.

    So, even though with the demise of the soviet Union, NATO ceased to have a raison d'être, it continued simply because people associated with it wasted to survive.

    Then it expanded it's role in the Balkans and probably other areas that i can't remember.

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  24. #11199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Another view: Warning- Opinion.

    Comments?
    Author lost me at the description of NATO as “a mighty offensive oak”
    I don’t recall any NATO first-strike attacks in its history…

  25. #11200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Another view: Warning- Opinion.

    Comments?
    At the very latest, NATO became obsolete in 1991 when its raison d’etre — the Soviet Empire — dissolved.
    A lowly KGB bureaucrat seems to fly in the face of this assertion.

    By remaining in NATO and spearheading its expansion to Russia’s borders with 30 members, the United States provoked President Vladimir Putin’s attack on Ukraine.
    The alleged expansion to Russia's borders is at best a stale claim. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania joined in 2004, potentially motivated by Putins rise to power and the Moscow theater hostage crisis resulting from Chechen independence dynamics. See the threat of Putin.

    It was poised to join NATO to fortify the encirclement of an already diminished Russia constituting a greater existential threat to it than the existential threat the Cuban missile crisis posed to the United States.
    Another ridiculous claim, relying on the previous vapor.

    I'm not buying Rogers Waters hostile quips either.
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